D&D General Refresh my memory on the lethality of 3rd ed

DarkCrisis

Reeks of Jedi
If AD&D is hard mode and 5E is easy mode, how does 3E fit into it?

From what I can recall, it was about the same as AD&D but more HP? Things like really high AC bogged things down.. way to crunchy as things got into higher levels.

I’d look in a book but i sold those years ago :(
 

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Vaalingrade

Legend
Levels 1 and 2 were stupid lethal as most of the party's HP were lass than the weapon dice of the monsters you fought.

Past that, healing was completely insufferable without a cleric until we figured out the wand of cure/vigor deal, and that also made things deadly.

And of course past level 7, everything was rocket tag unless the DM and players called and armistice to just not use the unfairness powers.
 

pogre

Legend
Levels 1 and 2 were stupid lethal as most of the party's HP were lass than the weapon dice of the monsters you fought.

Past that, healing was completely insufferable without a cleric until we figured out the wand of cure/vigor deal, and that also made things deadly.

And of course past level 7, everything was rocket tag unless the DM and players called and armistice to just not use the unfairness powers.
Yep.

Wands changed the game very quickly from deadly to not so much. Plus in 3.X you did not have to find wands - you could just make 'em.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Earliest levels: Deadly due to swinginess, especially if you didn't use the technically optional rule to give max HP at first level.
Mid levels: Dangerous unless you've realized that a wand of lesser vigor heals 10 HP/minute (technically, exactly 11 HP over 66s) even at CL 1, meaning for 750 gp you get 11*50 = 550 HP from a single wand, or about 1.36 gp/HP (by far the most efficient way to heal, and a trivial expense at high level.)
High levels: Rocket tag takes over. Win initiative, you're almost guaranteed to win the fight, possibly in less than a full round. Lose...better hope you have enough contingencies planned to save your butt or you may be dead.
Epic levels: hahahahahaha what is this "death" of which you speak
 
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Voadam

Legend
AD&D had you roll your first level Hit Die. Anybody could roll a 1 at first level. 3e gave you max hp on your first level HD.

1e only went unconscious if you went exactly to 0 hp losing one each round with no roll, otherwise if the blow took you to -1 it was death. 2e was death at -10. 3e gave you staggered at 0, unconscious at -1 and losing 1 per round but with a check to stabilize, then death at -10.

AD&D has a lot more save or die effects. Poison in AD&D was generally save or die, in 3e it is ability damage. In AD&D lots of undead things were permanent effects without magic like energy drain, ghost aging 10-40 years per round, etc. In 3e energy drain caused one negative level but you could save to get rid of it the next day.

At higher levels however there was a bit more rocket tag in 3e where you can do more offense than defense and if you don't take out an opponent pretty fast there is big potential they can take you out.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Having played both, 3e at low levels is IME fairly similar to 1e - death can and does lurk around every corner.

Once you get to mid-high levels in 3e, probably the biggest determinant of lethality (or most anything else!) is one's degree of system mastery. A true master of the system (read: optimizer) can play it like a fiddle; someone not into system mastery/optimization will instead risk getting played.

This is different from 1e in that while a certain amount of system mastery could be useful there, it wasn't nearly as important as it is in 3e.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
It really depended on how the DM ran things. The idea of a "Magic Mart" became popular in 3E, and certain items (Wand of Cure Light Wounds) made healing outside of combat trivial. If you had to actually create them, I believe you needed to take a feat to do so, possibly even a feat chain. On a lethal scale of 1 - 10, with 1 being 5E and 10 being AD&D, the game was a 7 if you didn't have access to these items, but only a 3 if you did.
 

If AD&D is hard mode and 5E is easy mode, how does 3E fit into it?

From what I can recall, it was about the same as AD&D but more HP? Things like really high AC bogged things down.. way to crunchy as things got into higher levels.

I’d look in a book but i sold those years ago :(

Level 2 bard vs orc with great axe.
Crit = instagib.

Save or die.

Very lethal. Even compared to ADnD.

Edit:
Lethal in the sense of uncontrollable and random.

3d12+18 just kills al level 2 character.
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Yes, 3e at first blush seems less deadly than AD&D, but critical hits and more deadly monsters belies that very quickly. Since all monsters have ability scores now, their attacks, damage, saves, AC, and hit points can vary wildly, even at low CR's.

Like a lot of DM's, one of the first 3e DM's I played under would decide that, if a monster has treasure they can use, they will. Since he was unclear about treasure distribution, he'd roll up treasure randomly, and eyeball anything that went beyond WBL guidelines.

We were fighting hobgoblins, and he'd determined their captain would have access to banded mail +1. Following the guidelines, he gave the captain 2 levels of Fighter, making him a CR 2.5. Finding that to be a little odd, he gave him another level of Warrior, making him a full CR 3.

Now by the rules, this changed his base stats from 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 to 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (before taking his +2 Dex, +2 Con into account). Now that he was 4 HD, he got a +1 to an ability score as well.

When all was said in done, Captain Bloodaxe became a legend for years to come, with Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 12, 19 AC (Banded Mail +1, +1 Dex bonus, +2 shield), and 32 hit points!

We eventually pried that armor off of him only because of his horrible Will save (even bolstered by Iron Will it was only a +1), and we learned a valuable lesson about the monster creation rules- always compare the final result to an existing monster. In every respect save damage, Bloodaxe was superior to an Ogre (and I've seen more than my fair share of low level players taken out by a lucky Ogre crit, lol).

For most characters, "build" optimization really only started to matter by levels above 7-8, other than some Fighter builds, that usually still had a glaring weakness (like chain tripping vs. ranged attackers or big strong things with multiple legs- I watched a chain tripper completely fail to deal with a stock centaur!).

Though the right spells could be troublesome at any level, since the 3e team totally dropped the ball, thinking everyone was going to be using damage spells. Damage spells that were basically doing the same damage they'd been since the 70's, despite the fact monster hit points had dramatically increased.

When you launched a fireball into a crowd of foes and they were all still alive afterwards, you start looking at other options, and this is when people really started to see what things like web, stinking cloud, and sleet storm could do to a combat.

Having played with (and DM'd for) groups that think "optimization" is taking 2 levels of Fighter for bonus Feats, I will tell you that high level play in 3e was a miserable experience if you didn't have much system mastery. As a DM, I'd usually refuse to use spellcasters because I knew my players couldn't handle threats that did anything more dramatic than deal hit point damage.

Where an AD&D Fighter could always count on having decent saves, this was completely not true, and a lousy Hold Person was effectively a death sentence for a lot of characters.
 

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