D&D 5E Resting and the frikkin' Elephant in the Room

Because it is unnecessary from a rules perspective. The encounters per day and daily XP budget guidelines are just that. Guidelines. They aren't intended to be "enforced". Different DMs use them in different ways. Some use them to help design their own adventures. Others use them to help them with pacing of the published adventures. I tend to use them to let me know how much I can push my players.

If WotC were to produce some rules, I'd have no use for them. I'm not opposed to it. I don't use the encumbrance rules. I don't care that they are there. I wouldn't care if they took them away.

What happens if WotC doesn't give you what you want?

You have been given several suggestions. You can continue to complain or you can take the advice you've been given and see what you can make with them. Or you can wait for WotC to solve it for you in some "official" way.

I agree, but I have a hard time imagining what kind of rule you could create that would "give the players a reason to push on". Or why it would be needed.

It's kind of like saying "there should be a rule that forces the PCs to fight creatures of the appropriate CR".

There is no rule like that because it's the DM's responsibility.
 

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TL;DR: Everybody's telling me the solution to my problems is X, only X isn't in the game. So what kind of crappy solution is that?!
One of the ones that'd actually work...

Now, here comes the elephant(s) in the room, that nobody seems to actually want to discuss:

* The official published scenarios never* provide what's needed to enforce this attrition.

* The rules never enforce any attrition.
So 5e's big schtick is "DM Empowerment," that means the DM is given the tools (sorta) and the latitude (parsecs of it), to make the game into what he wants. It also means he has to work at it a bit...

How do you make attrition work in a game where you don't fancy doing all the hard work, and instead rely on official published supplements?
If you don't fancy doing the hard work, don't DM, play. Seriously. Problem solved. If you aren't up to the challenge of running 5e, don't run it. We /need/ DMs, sure, but DMs who are going to do a good job of DMing.

How many encounters and short rests do you have per long rest?
Whatever feels right for the pacing of the adventure. Yeah, there's a guideline, and yeah, it works in theory. But I'd rather not wrap my campaign in knots to follow it, I'll adjust intraparty and encounter balance in other ways - by emphasizing certain challenges to move that metaphorical spotlight around, for instance.

What does the party need to do when they feel they need to stop and rest?
Stop, rest, and remain undisturbed for the requisite period of time.
What's stopping them from doing this?
The world (ie the DM, with a convenient veneer of fiction). 'Random' encounters, enforced time pressure, contrived consequences. cf "GM Force," if you can stand to read the Forge.

Feel free to use existing modules as examples
The modules, like the rules themselves, are only a starting point.

The only constraint I'm asking of you is that you can't dismiss or "solve" the issue by the flippant "just add time constraints to the adventure" thing.
Fine. Boost encounter difficulty. Throw in 'random' encounters when the party tries to rest too soon until they've met their quota. Force the plot along when they stall out, have the next encounter come to them, have it get harder the longer they wait to get to it, have the bad guys do something awful that they could have prevented if they hadn't been sitting around unnecessarily resting. Make any decision that's not good for the campaign, /bad/ for the PCs...

None of that is anything new to DMing with 5e. We all did that kinda thing back in the TSR era, we wished we could've gotten away with more of it in the WotC era, now we can. Go for it.

Enforcing attrition has always been somewhat hard in D&D. In many situations and scenarios, nothing prevents the party from going as slowly and carefully as possible, resting frequently to recover spells and hit points.

The innovations introduced in 4e and to a large extent carried over into 5e were designed with the purpose and intention of largely doing away with the attrition model that D&D had theoretically relied upon in the 1e, 2e, and 3e eras.
I don't think that's a fair characterization. Apart from the fact that we can't retroactively read their minds to divine the actual purpose, the innovations that 4e introduced that reduced the reliance on un-enforceable 'attrition' were structural and made class balance more robust, and were not retained by 5e. 5e is very nearly as unenforceable-attrition-model-dependent as the classic game (or 3e, for that matter).

5e retained overnight healing, but that's just a simplification of the rest-rememorize-heal-rest cycle that the classic game churned through to get everyone back up to full fighting strength. It kept something called a short rest, but it's an hour long, and not assumed after most encounters, so the impact is not at all the same.

And, really, even 4e didn't do away with the attrition model, it was just balanced whether you used attrition over a long day as a challenge, or not.

It is therefore rather ridiculous to not acknowledge that and act like nothing has changed, and that challenging the players through attrition - always a difficult proposition - is now somehow supported by the system. It's not.
But it is once again /required/ by the system to impose some semblance of class & encounter balance.
 
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Well, you're forgetting (or ignoring) a third side: those like me who aren't big on "super-cool fighter maneuvers" being a mechanical part of the game at all and who don't have any problem with just standing in and swinging a weapon until I or the foe falls down. :)

Yep ... champion fighter for me all day long. :cool:
Yup. I like 1E Fighters and I cannot lie.

More attacks and weapon specialization are nice to make it clear that you're the best at what you do, but it's still just rolling dice all day.

My personal favorite was always Ranger, but I like Fighter and Thief/Rogue almost as much.
 

So, @CapnZapp , given this, I don't think that just attacking the rules is going to get you very far. I think you want to take your attack deeper, and tackle the underlying philosophy and reward system. Fix this, and the rules will then work for you rather than against you.

Someone (or several someones? I forget) have brought up a solution idea whereby there needs to be a hard-coded certain number of encounters between rests. A vaild argument against this is that it makes no sense if those encounters are days apart.

Exactly, as you said it actually makes no sense to hard-code such an arbitrary system. However like you said 2 paragraphs up

Which means it's all about xp...and as most xp comes from combat this will push a play-style ...(snip)

Why not change the XP/reward system. Where the first few encounters yield 0 or a percentage of the XPs (with encounter difficulty being the other component on the axis). It makes more sense than the hard-coded x encounters before a short/long rest. It will now match the party's capabilities at the time of the fight with the difficulty rating of the fight. It actually corrects the reward system of the DMG/MM.

With the current system fighting a beholder as your first encounter yields the same XP as fighting a beholder at the end of a day after you have already had half a dozen encounters and the party is already spent.

Therefore @CapnZapp using the DMG as a guide, you will need to draw up an XP reward ratio based on the number of encounters (and their difficulty) they deal with during a day. The fewer encounters they get through in a day the lesser the XP yield. And since you are drawing up the table you can make it as harsh as you want. Imagine if you state that the first 2-3 (easy to hard) encounters yield 0 XP, that way they keep pushing otherwise they stall their advancement. All sorts of interesting combinations may exist.
 

Therefore @CapnZapp using the DMG as a guide, you will need to draw up an XP reward ratio based on the number of encounters (and their difficulty) they deal with during a day. The fewer encounters they get through in a day the lesser the XP yield. And since you are drawing up the table you can make it as harsh as you want. Imagine if you state that the first 2-3 (easy to hard) encounters yield 0 XP, that way they keep pushing otherwise they stall their advancement. All sorts of interesting combinations may exist.

I like this idea a lot, but given the propensity for milestone leveling (especially in the published adventures) utilizing it requires switching back to an XP based leveling system. (Not that I'm opposed as milestone leveling is starting to seem a bit unrewarding to players as it seemingly comes out of the blue...)
 

Uniquely odd?!? Your profile says you joined back in 2002 - where were you during the mid-2000s? Every time someone said they didn't have the 15-minute day problem, people would dogpile on. It was definitely a thing around here.
So your defense of the other poster's behavior is that it warranted because of something that may have been happening over a decade ago? Are you sure you want that as your argument?
 


I like this idea a lot, but given the propensity for milestone leveling (especially in the published adventures) utilizing it requires switching back to an XP based leveling system. (Not that I'm opposed as milestone leveling is starting to seem a bit unrewarding to players as it seemingly comes out of the blue...)

Good point. I hadn't thought about milestone levelling at all!!!
 

No, definitely did happen, and continues happening to this day.
If that's so, I'd sure like to see some current examples, if you got 'em. Thanks. No, seriously. I haven't seen anything like that in a long, long time. Not saying it hasn't happened recently. Somewhere. But it certainly seems odd, and out of place to me, in this current forum environment.

Cuz, as much as you keep claiming you were being "preemptive", what you actually did is generally seen as an attempt to devalue the opinions of others, by expressing a supposed broader experience. To establish a degree of authority on a subject (there's a whole fallacy dedicated to hinging arguments on such behavior, BTW). But, in this case at least, it backfired when your self-admitted level of experience turned out to be less. Which seems to have bothered you to find out I guess, because here we still are?
 


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