Rogue/warlock viability...

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's from the FAQ. After the swordmage came out, they realized differentiating between (as an example) a sword-as-implement and sword-as-weapon was leading to needless complexity, especially when dealing with implement powers that deal weapon damage, and weapon powers that deal non-weapon damage, etc etc. Then you have weapons with properties that allow them to be used as implements, implements with properties that allow them to be used as weapons....

And what is the difference between a staff and a staff?

...and that's before you get to paragon tier and things can get -really- messed up. And also, before the introduction of PHB2.

Yeah, I totally agree that the whole weapon/implement thing is a giant mess, but that really has little to no bearing on what RAW is. RAW is simply what is actually written down in the rule books.[/quote]

So they decided to simplify things they ruled (and tossed onto the FAQ) that unless it says otherwise, there's no games-mechanical difference between attacking with a weapon, and attacking with an implement, other than the proficiency bonus.

The rogue bonus to daggers does not say that you have to use them for weapon attacks, only that you attack with the item. Pact Blades are warlock implements, and using an implement in an implement power -is- attacking with it. So the rogue bonus -does- apply.

The problem here is that it comes back to that ugly word 'wield'. If you take it in its "plain english" sense, then a rogue with a dagger in her hand gains a +1 to ALL attacks of any kind regardless of what they are or whether or not they are delivered via the dagger or not. The dagger could be in the off hand and the rogue could be using a long sword to deliver a melee attack and by the literal interpretation of the RWT the +1 would apply. Since that does not appear to be the correct interpretation, then we must assume the more technical interpretation of 'wield' which at the very least means the attack must be delivered by the weapon.

And before you say 'daggers are weapons!' please do note that daggers are explicitly listed as an implement type as of PHB2 and the sorcerer class.

A SORCERER can use a dagger as an implement. That has nothing to do with which a dagger is for any other class, including someone multiclassing as a Sorcerer since that is a class feature of sorcerer and the ONLY way to get a class feature is to BE that class, unless there is a MC feat which grants it to others. So a dagger IS a weapon. Unless you are a sorcerer it is NOT an implement. A pact blade dagger could be an implement, but only if the character is casting a warlock spell and has the warlock class feature which allows use of warlock implements. WotST can consider a sword to be an implement, but again that has no impact on anyone else doing so. A swordmage is in a similar category, what it considers to be an implement is not relevant to any other class. Finally FAQ entries are not RAW either, and should be interpreted just as any rule would, to be exactly what they say and no more or less than that.

All of these things factor into it, and IMHO when you go through that whole tangled mess you don't come out anywhere with RWT clearly applying to dagger implements. It really is just a completely muddy situation where the rules are too imprecise to interpret. Nothing short of a comprehensive errata which clearly defines the term 'wield' is going to resolve it.

 

[keterys]

RWT clearly applies to dagger when used as an implement. The only thing you've shown is that it might also apply to attacks with other weapons while you hold a dagger in one hand (potentially RAW, but obviously not RAI), but you haven't shown that it doesn't apply in the case given.

I mean, sure, you might object to it or not like it (not sure) or think raising an objection is good for some other reason (dunno), but it is crystal clear that it applies in this instance based on the RAW. RAI? Eh, dunno, but I'd guess also fine. Strictly a guess though.

 

[Klaus]

I'm bumping this thread to thank everyone who contributed. The character in question has been fully painted, and I thought you'd be interested in seeing him in action: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...based-wizards-coasts-vampire-hunter-mini.html

Thanks!

 

[Markn]

So they decided to simplify things they ruled (and tossed onto the FAQ) that unless it says otherwise, there's no games-mechanical difference between attacking with a weapon, and attacking with an implement, other than the proficiency bonus.

The rogue bonus to daggers does not say that you have to use them for weapon attacks, only that you attack with the item. Pact Blades are warlock implements, and using an implement in an implement power -is- attacking with it. So the rogue bonus -does- apply.


And before you say 'daggers are weapons!' please do note that daggers are explicitly listed as an implement type as of PHB2 and the sorcerer class.

I'm not sure this is explicitly said. IMHO, the rogue bonus to daggers is still open to interpretation. Yes, a dagger can be a weapon and yes it can be an implement. How you attack with it determines what it is. If the power says 'implement' then its acting as such. If the power says 'weapon' then its acting as a weapon.

The PH states:

Once per round, when you have combat advantage
against an enemy and are using a weapon from the
light blade, the crossbow, or the sling weapon group,
an attack you make against that enemy deals extra
damage if the attack hits.

The bolded emphasis is mine. It would be a reasonable interpretation to think that they are specifically talking about weapons powers because that is all that it mentions.

Now, I'm inclined to play it the way you believe the intent is. I'm just not on board with your view being the defacto default interpretation.

 

[keterys]

You're quoting sneak attack - which is a different conversation from rogue weapon talent (and why I suggested making sure the DM was okay with it)

Awesome pic!

 

[Markn]

You're quoting sneak attack - which is a different conversation from rogue weapon talent (and why I suggested making sure the DM was okay with it)

Awesome pic!

D'oh!

That's what I get for jump into the thread near the end and about a month late.