D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[CapnZapp]

Subclaas to boost sneak attack dice is easy enough. 3 of the 4 assassin features boost sneak attack damage.

A subclass that boosts damage under certain conditions is fair enuff.

What I am talking about is extra sneak dice in general. Unconditional sneak dice, if that isn't already an oxymoron (they still follow all the rules for when sneak attack damage applies, I mean). A plain boost to the number of sneak attack dice. Walking around town with, say, 12d6 or 15d6 sneak attack dice (at level 20 of course) instead of 10d6. Always. Not just in special scenarios.

If the pinnacle of sneak attacking is 20d6 that's ten extra dice. Let's envision how these might be attained:

Adding a subclass should probably account for half those, easy. That's a +50% increase (a progression of +1d6 at low levels and +5d6 at very high level)

If we envision a feat, that's probably +2d6. But +2d6 is OP at low levels (and outright broken at very low levels), so this should probably either be a feat that firsts grants some benefit and then later on grants the remaining benefit... or simply a feat you can't take until, let's say, level 8.

Then the remaining three dice we can sprinkle out as other effects, say two items and one spell. If these give +1d6 each, there's no reason to make sure they can't be combined.

If a regular rogue takes the feat, that brings him up from 10d6 to 12d6 (assuming level 20). If a specialized rogue gets both items, that's 17d6 (again, at level 20).

 

[CapnZapp]

Items and feats that are "once per turn" or give a per-dice boost will synergise with sneak attack. Without being "rogue only".

And I am not arguing for anyone to take those away.

 

[mellored]

If the pinnacle of sneak attacking is 20d6 that's ten extra dice

I doubt i want to wait for someone to roll that every turn, but ok.

Adding a subclass should probably account for half those, easy. That's a +50% increase (a progression of +1d6 at low levels and +5d6 at very high level)

Not sure if any subclass adds unconditional 50% more damage.

Assassin gets 5d6 once per combat.

Unconditional 3d6 sounds more in line.

If we envision a feat, that's probably +2d6.

Great weapon master adds + proficiency once per turn. So sometime like...

Light Weapon Mastery
*+1 Dex
*Once per turn add 1d4, increasing to 2d4 at level 11, and 2d6 at level 17
*you have proficiency in improvised light weapons, such as a fork.

Then the remaining three dice we can sprinkle out as other effects, say two items and one spell. If these give +1d6 each, there's no reason to make sure they can't be combined.

Flame Tongue does 2d6 per hit.

So 5d6 once per turn is probably fine, as a top tier weapon.


3+2+5 = 10d6.

None of which have "require rogue".

 

[Mistwell]

The problem I see with focusing on sneak attack dice rather than something else which delivers a similar impact isn't specific to sneak attack dice remains.

Sometimes you cannot meet the criteria for a sneak attack. You have disadvantage from something (like heavy obscurement) and no ally next to the foe. And that tends to happen more often at higher levels.

So if you want to add more damage to a rogue, it should be done in a way which adds to damage regardless of whether it's a sneak attack.

If the thing you're looking for is roughly adding +1 to each sneak attack die, or increasing the sneak attack dice from a d6 to a d8 (average +1 damage per sneak attack die), and if most games end around mid levels (10th?) then you're really mostly saying you want to add an extra d8 to rogue damage on average.

I think it would be better then to just have something which adds a d8 to an attack a rogue makes, which ISN'T linked directly to sneak attack. If you sneak attack, it adds a d8. If you don't sneak attack but hit, it adds a d8. It applies to both circumstances.

And you want it to be mostly rogue-specific.

Add it to any attack you make for any of these circumstances: 1) you were hidden, or 2) attack includes poison damage or poisoned condition, or 3) attack was made with advantage, or when you have an ally next to the enemy. That way, it CAN apply whenever you hit, even if it's not a sneak attack (but also when it is a sneak attack.)

That would do more help for the rogue than just focusing on sneak attack.

 

[CapnZapp]

I doubt i want to wait for someone to roll that every turn, but ok.

Not sure if any subclass adds unconditional 50% more damage.

Assassin gets 5d6 once per combat.

Unconditional 3d6 sounds more in line.

Great weapon master adds + proficiency once per turn. So sometime like...

Light Weapon Mastery
*+1 Dex
*Once per turn add 1d4, increasing to 2d4 at level 11, and 2d6 at level 17
*you have proficiency in improvised light weapons, such as a fork.


Flame Tongue does 2d6 per hit.

So 5d6 once per turn is probably fine, as a top tier weapon.


3+2+5 = 10d6.

None of which have "require rogue".

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

Flame Tongue is a fine weapon property. I didn't really do the math on your suggestions, but I'll simply assume those are fine additions to the game as well.

None of them preclude sneak attack damage bonuses, though.

That they are equally applicable to every weapon user is not the solution. It is the problem. I don't feel my sneak attack is better if I do it with a flame tongue. Everyone using that weapon gets +2d6 fire. That has nothing to do with my desire for a way to boost sneak attacks.

 

[CapnZapp]

The problem I see with focusing on sneak attack dice rather than something else which delivers a similar impact isn't specific to sneak attack dice remains.

Sometimes you cannot meet the criteria for a sneak attack.

If you like sneak attacking, you embrace the challenge of making it work.

If the DM gives you bonus fire damage, or just more damage in general, extra attack and so on, that... increases the overall damage of your character and class in a non-specific way. It lessens the need to fight in ways specific to the rogue class. It makes it less important to meet the conditions for the Rogue signature ability.

That's not what I'm asking for.

So if you want to add more damage to a rogue, it should be done in a way which adds to damage regardless of whether it's a sneak attack.

No, quite the opposite.

Ways to add damage in general already exists, and in large numbers. We don't particularly need more of that.

A character that deals big chunks of damage no matter how the blow is delivered is called a "warrior".

Only a character that usually deals puny damage but with the potential to dish out scary big damage when the enemy isn't paying attention is a "rogue" to me.

Here I'm asking for effects that only work if you keep sneak attacking. You know, bonus sneak attack damage.

 

[Mistwell]

If you like sneak attacking, you embrace the challenge of getting it off.

If the DM gives you bonus fire damage, or just more damage in general, that... increases the overall damage of your character and class in a non-specific way. It lessens the need to fight in ways specific to the rogue class. It makes it less important to meet the conditions for the Rogue signature ability.

That's not what I'm asking for.


No, quite the opposite.

Ways to add damage in your way already exists, and in large numbers. We don't particularly need more of that.

Here I'm asking for effects that only work if you keep sneak attacking. You know, bonus sneak attack damage.

You cut the part that made it specific to rogues. I assume intentionally as it was it's own section and underlined. I'll give you a chance to review what you were replying to, maybe you made a mistake.

 

[CapnZapp]

You cut the part that made it specific to rogues. I assume intentionally as it was it's own section and underlined. I'll give you a chance to review what you were replying to, maybe you made a mistake.

No I am not really mostly saying I want to add an extra d8 to rogue damage on average.

Was this the underlying part you think I missed?

 

[CapnZapp]

That would do more help for the rogue than just focusing on sneak attack.

I'm not trying to help the rogue in general. We have already established the rogue in general needs no help.

I'm trying to satisfy the playstyle where your sneak attack gets scary but you otherwise remain unremarkable.

The rules already allow for the possibility you deal sneak damage twice or more during a turn. We just need a way to play the game where you don't need to bend backwards to get this done.

Helping the rogue in general would defeat this goal.

 

[Mistwell]

No I am not really mostly saying I want to add an extra d8 to rogue damage on average.

Was this the underlying part you think I missed?

No?