Rogues flanking at range?

[atom crash]

And you still can't flank in a bar fight unless someone draws a knife.

or unless someone has improved unarmed strike. or has a spiked gauntlet. or uses an improvised weapon of any type.

how often does someone use an improvised weapon in a bar fight? that never happens in the movies.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

While I like the idea of flanking in an unarmed bar fight, I don't like the idea of your sleeping buddy enabling you to flank. And that's what this way of interpreting flanking does as well.

Which is why the flanking rules really need a clarification. Alternatively, all these problems (or, at least, most of them) might go away if they were amended to say:

FLANKING

[To determine] whether two friendly[, non-helpless] characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace [the shortest possible] imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked. [Note that if the opponent is unaware of either of the two friendly characters, or if either of the friendly characters is unaware of the other or the opponent, the opponent is not flanked.*] [If you want to explicitly limit it to melee only, then you need to also add something like: You are not considered flanking when making any ranged attack.]

When [flanking and] making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus. [^Stricken as redundant]
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

* - There would also need to be some verbiage somewhere else in the rules explicitly stating that you attackers of whom you are not aware as invisible (i.e., denied Dex bonus, +2 on attacks ...)

I think that closes all the appropriate loopholes.

EDIT: Added "non-helpless" to close the "my sleeping buddy helps me flank" problem.

 

[ThirdWizard]

If you don't use Patryn's reading you're effectively making up a house rule by adding this condition. No problem of course, you just lose the position of arguing that you can flank from range by the RAW.

Incorrect.

[glossary]flank[/glossary]
To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character. A flanking attacker gains a +2 flanking bonus on attack rolls against the defender. A rogue can sneak attack a defender that she is flanking.

emphasis added

Patryn uses the "when in doubt" more readily than I do. I use it as the definition of "directly" in the quote above. He uses it as a test to determine flanking.

 

[Philip]

I think that closes all the appropriate loopholes.

It goes a long way, but still allows for enough weirdness:

The arcane trickster who uses his toad familiar sitting on the other side of a ravine to flank his opponent. (both are aware, opponent is aware, toad and trickster have a good line).

The inmate shackled to the wall and behind an iron portcullis allowing his rogue jailbreaker to sneak attack the guard. (both aware, opponent aware, inmate and rogue have a good line)

So I think your new definition still needs work, matbe you need to do something with the threaten part in the definition. Maybe the problem in the flanking definition sits in the fact that some attacks don't (seem) to threaten. I would sure feel 'threatened' in a barfight regardless of the fact if my opponents practice martial arts or not.

 

[Zaebos]

Since your sleeping buddy does not threaten your target, (can't make a melee attack into the targets square), even if it borders or corners the opposite with your character, it still can't make a melee attack and therefore can not give your buddy a flank bonus.

 

[Philip]

To ThirdWizard and Zaebos:

The core of Patryn's argument was that you could read the second sentence of the SRD (in the combat section) apart from the first, and that the first should be used to determine when you get the +2 bonus on melee attacks (right Patryn?), and the second should be used to determine 'flanking'.

I just postulated that when reading it this way other kinds of weird situations would be possible: like the example of the sleeping buddy helping his friend to flank.

Because I find that weird as well, I do not use Patryn's logic, and would like to include the threatened portion to the definition. Unfortunately, this makes it impossible for flanking in an unarmed barfight.

 

[Zaebos]

Yes it does make flanking impossible in an unarmed bar fight, until someone picks up a bottle, chair, mug, serving whench etc...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The core of Patryn's argument was that you could read the second sentence of the SRD (in the combat section) apart from the first, and that the first should be used to determine when you get the +2 bonus on melee attacks (right Patryn?), and the second should be used to determine 'flanking'.

Exactly.

I just postulated that when reading it this way other kinds of weird situations would be possible: like the example of the sleeping buddy helping his friend to flank.

I'm editing my above to account for that. Thanks!

 

[ThirdWizard]

Yes it does make flanking impossible in an unarmed bar fight, until someone picks up a ... serving whench

Somebody needs to teach the barbarian what a figure of speech is...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The arcane trickster who uses his toad familiar sitting on the other side of a ravine to flank his opponent. (both are aware, opponent is aware, toad and trickster have a good line).

In such a case, the defender could just decide that he's unaware of the toad. In which case, the toad is treated as invisible as far as the defender is concerned.

This may have unforseen side effects, however ... Specifically, I'm thinking of a Rogue 4 or Barbarian 2 with the Blind-Fighting feat just deciding to close his eyes and become unaware of everyone.

I'm not sure that this would actually benefit him enough, other than to deny everyone flanking ...