Rogue's Sneak Attack

[IcyCool]

But abilities are not for combat, but for other things.
How can a rogue be a combat beast? I can't see..

Well, let's take two human characters. One, a Rogue with 16 DEX and 10 STR, the other a Fighter with 16 STR and 10 DEX. We'll make them both 4th level.

The Fighter is using a greatsword, and has Power Attack, Weapon Focus:Greatsword, Weapon Specialization:Greatsword, and two other feats. The rogue is using two shortswords and has Two-weapon fighting, Weapon Focus:Shortsword, and one other feat. If they are flanking Monster A with each other, their attack and damage will look like this:

Fighter: One attack at +10, dealing 2d6+6 damage (average 13). If he power attacks for 4, that will change to one attack at +6, dealing 2d6+14 damage (average 21).

Rogue: Two attacks at +7, dealing 3d6 damage each (average 10.5 each). So the rogue would be dealing 6d6 total damage a round if he hit with both attacks (average 21).

So they are pretty close (the rogue is slightly better in this scenario). The rogue has fewer hitpoints, and will probably be easier to hit, so it doesn't exactly have the staying power of the fighter. But if a two-weapon fighting rogue can get into position for a full attack on something that sneak attack works on, he'll skewer it.

 

[Felix]

So you say, Rogue's a looser?

Rogues are often glass cannons: they can dish out mucho damage, but can't take much before they break.

 

[Nail]

But abilities are not for combat, but for other things.
How can a rogue be a combat beast? I can't see..

"Loser" is the word you want, I think.

In our high level game, we commonly worked it so that the Ftr and Rog worked as a team to flank the BBEG. Often the Sor (or my Clr, with magical boots) would use their actions to move the duo into position so they could each get off a full attack while flanking.

In many cases, the high-level Rog easily out-damaged the high level Ftr. (BTW, I'm using the term "Ftr" loosely; he was a Ftr/Bbn/Tempest/Exotic Weapon Master/....... ) Rogues, set-up properly and supported by their team-mates can do great things.

Team-work for a Rog is key.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Far from it. Rogues are combat beasts, especially dual wielding finesse builds. But they can suffer against opponents with high ACs, and suffer incredibly against creatures with immunity to crits.

no kidding. We have a rogue in our group doing twf (rogue3/fighter2/invisible blade *feats pre req changed to twf, focus, combat reflexes*

He ether does way more damage then the party fighter (me) or does so little damage he might as well not try, seeing as how his attacks don't do more then 5 damage without sneak attack, any damage reduction from monsters that he cannot counter are basicly dead hits.

When we fight undead, constructs, elementals, and planets, I'm on my own (we also have a bugiler)

 

[hong]

no kidding. We have a rogue in our group doing twf (rogue3/fighter2/invisible blade *feats pre req changed to twf, focus, combat reflexes*

He ether does way more damage then the party fighter (me) or does so little damage he might as well not try, seeing as how his attacks don't do more then 5 damage without sneak attack, any damage reduction from monsters that he cannot counter are basicly dead hits.

When we fight undead, constructs, elementals, and planets, I'm on my own (we also have a bugiler)

A bugler? As in a bard?

 

[Jhaelen]

A bugler? As in a bard?

? Beguiler

 

[Mark Chance]

But abilities are not for combat, but for other things.

That depends entirely on the skill.

How can a rogue be a combat beast? I can't see..

Rogues aren't supposed to be combat beasts. They're niche combatants. In certain defined situations against certain foes, a rogue has a chance to be quite effective, but caution is still advisable.

Consider the example above of a rogue flanking a giant. The giant might be stupid, but it isn't going to be so stupid it's going to ignore the high damage potential of a flanking rogue more than once. If that giant doesn't go down quick, the rogue then runs the very real risk of becoming the target of the giant's full attack.

Two things giants do well: make attack rolls and dish out damage. The rogue, with his d6 HD, isn't up to the task of withstanding the second of these things.

IMO, I don't like running a rogue built to be a combat beast. The most successful rogue I've run with 3.5 was a gnome rogue/cleric who didn't have a single feat devoted to combat. Instead, he was a skill bonus monster who pulled his weight not in combat but by scouting, picking pockets, searching, healing the injured, disable devices, opening locks, buffing allies, bluffing foes, climbing walls, pulling downed comrades out of harm's way, et cetera.

Ah, good times.

 

[Dark Dragon]

That depends entirely on the skill.



Rogues aren't supposed to be combat beasts. They're niche combatants. In certain defined situations against certain foes, a rogue has a chance to be quite effective, but caution is still advisable.

Consider the example above of a rogue flanking a giant. The giant might be stupid, but it isn't going to be so stupid it's going to ignore the high damage potential of a flanking rogue more than once. If that giant doesn't go down quick, the rogue then runs the very real risk of becoming the target of the giant's full attack.

Two things giants do well: make attack rolls and dish out damage. The rogue, with his d6 HD, isn't up to the task of withstanding the second of these things.

IMO, I don't like running a rogue built to be a combat beast. The most successful rogue I've run with 3.5 was a gnome rogue/cleric who didn't have a single feat devoted to combat. Instead, he was a skill bonus monster who pulled his weight not in combat but by scouting, picking pockets, searching, healing the injured, disable devices, opening locks, buffing allies, bluffing foes, climbing walls, pulling downed comrades out of harm's way, et cetera.

Ah, good times.

Hehe, hmm, my elven rogue/assassin was then the opposite type: TWF, Improved Critical (rapier) and fighting with a keen adamantine rapier plus a dagger of greater wounding Plus high move silently and hide skills. I liked that guy. BTW, his best friend in the party was a halfling rogue/shadowdancer...One time, an evil high priest found himself flanked by the elf and the halfling. He was quite surprised of being dead before being able to act (the DM was also surprised ).

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Rogues are often glass cannons: they can dish out mucho damage, but can't take much before they break.

And if whatever they're fighting is immune to extra damage from crits (i.e the undead plant ooze half-elemental golem in heavy fortification armor), their damage goes WAAAAY down.

The Heavy Fortification armor is what really ticked me off when I was playing a rogue.

Brad

 

[Felix]

(i.e the undead plant ooze half-elemental golem in heavy fortification armor)

... of legend?