Scout-Dervish, Spike Chain optimization

[Kylas]

Hey I'm trying to build a Scout/Dervish.
My main goal is to get it going at about ECL 10 with a 2d6 skirmish and the possibility of Improved skirmish ( extra 2d6 +2AC after 20ft move). All of this being done with a spiked chain.

Also trying to squeeze tempest or EX Weapon Master after ECL 10 levels in there if it needs it, they grant secondary attacks at certain levels but maybe that's too much


In general for these classes to work I know need Weapon focus along with Spring attack feat tree.
For Tempest i need Imp 2 Weap fighting tree
And for spike chain I need EX. Weap. Prof: Spike Chain

Questions:

1. What are the best classes to get this. It seems like only good classes to add to this are prestige. Are there any core classes other than Fighter that would help. If there isn't a viable way to add Tempest to the above build than mostly want to augment the Scout Dervish. Unfortunately I need 7 Scout to get dervish.

2. Is Spike Chain worth it? Should I stick with Dual Scimitars?

3. What should I shoot for EWM or Tempest. EWM is easier but the tempest Defense is sooo sweet.


4. Any non magical way to reduce the effects of the fatigue that the Dervish suffers after Dervish dance. Or what are my options after dance is gone any feats I should look into or is this build ready to handle that situation?

Lastly I really don't like my chars to rely on magic item abilities so I usually never look at them, but if you know of any really helpful ones than I'm open to suggestions form this build.


Thanks in advance!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

How can you double post when you only hit the button once?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

First, magic items: Mobility is worth a +1 market price modifier, gives the feat of the same name, light armor only, MIC. Makes the Spring Attack feat tree much less painful to get. Also from that book, there are skirmisher boots/sandals/I forget. Some kind of footwear for scouts. Gives some nice bonuses, and is very cheap. Other good footwear is the boots of sidestepping. 3/day extra 5 ft step as a swift action, so you could double 5 ft step + full attack.

1. Not sure of too many helpful classes. Ranger makes TWF easier and opens up some useful spells from Spell Compendium. Fighter gives feats. Warblade from Tome of Battle might be good for a small dip. The tiger claw discipline adds some options for two weapon attacks, and if you can afford the feats for Stormguard Warrior (Iron Heart tactical feat, requires Ironheart Aura feat), you can do some VERY nasty combos. One of the tactics lets you make touch attacks for no damage and in return do +5 damage on every attack next round for each touch you make. You can see the abuse there, I'm sure...

2. Dual scimitars is certainly the optimized approach. Is that all that matters for you, though?

3. Umm...wouldn't it be simply EWM if using spiked chain, Tempest if using dual scimitars? Am I missing something?

4. There are spells to help, but that would be relying on another party member. My favorite combo is 5 ranks in heal + healing lorecall (level 2, 10 min/level, SpC) + ANY cure spell, even cure minor wounds. Healing lorecall lets someone w/ 5+ heal ranks remove one condition from a list (fatigue is one of them) with any healing spell. If you have a nice DM and can get UMD +19, you can ask him to let you use a wand of healing lorecall, and count as the caster such that you can simply take 5 ranks and then wand of cure minor your way to perfect status.

One other option is from the DMG, the Horizon Walker Horizon Walker :: d20srd.org
One of the Terrain Masteries, Desert, makes you immune to fatigue. Only a one level dip needed. The requirements are a bit rough, though.

 

[akbearfoot]

The requirements to qualify for both Tempest and Dervish are extensive...spring attack tree, and two-wep tree.

Dodge, mobility, spring attack, two wep fighting, imp 2 wep fighting, combat expertise, weapon focus. Thats 7 feats!

So a human scout would have to be 9th level and spend all their feats on the prereqs for Tempest.



My recommendation would be forget about the tempest and go all scout until you qualify for dervish, then max dervish as fast as you can. thousand cuts roxorz. Should look something like...

1st Dodge, Combat Expertise(b)
3rd Weapon focus
6th Mobility
Qualify to take first dervish level at 8th level.
9th Two weapon fighting
12th Imp Skirmish
15th Imp 2 wep fighting

Might be better feats out there, but thats off the top of my head. Might be worth your while to take 2 levels of ranger first for the 2-w fighting, ability to track etc...Depends on your preference I spose.

 

[Shin Okada]

While you can use Dervish Dance with any weapon, you can gain attack/damage bonuses only when using slashing weapon(s). For Dervish, I'd rather use Glaive. You are continually moving. Even when you are not using Dervish Dance, a 5-foot step is usually enough. And as a Dervish, you should have Spring Attack feat and high Tumble skill. So threatening adjacent squares is not so important.

 

[roguerouge]

Get two levels of ranger. There's a feat that allows your ranger levels to stack with Scout levels for the purposes of Favored Enemy and Skirmishing... Swift Hunter, I believe.

Mobility is available as a bonus feat for Scouts.

 

[Kylas]

How can you double post when you only hit the button once?

Not sure what you mean. Did I double post.

First, magic items: Mobility is worth a +1 market price modifier, gives the feat of the same name, light armor only, MIC. Makes the Spring Attack feat tree much less painful to get. Also from that book, there are skirmisher boots/sandals/I forget. Some kind of footwear for scouts. Gives some nice bonuses, and is very cheap. Other good footwear is the boots of sidestepping. 3/day extra 5 ft step as a swift action, so you could double 5 ft step + full attack.

1. Not sure of too many helpful classes. Ranger makes TWF easier and opens up some useful spells from Spell Compendium. Fighter gives feats. Warblade from Tome of Battle might be good for a small dip. The tiger claw discipline adds some options for two weapon attacks, and if you can afford the feats for Stormguard Warrior (Iron Heart tactical feat, requires Ironheart Aura feat), you can do some VERY nasty combos. One of the tactics lets you make touch attacks for no damage and in return do +5 damage on every attack next round for each touch you make. You can see the abuse there, I'm sure...

2. Dual scimitars is certainly the optimized approach. Is that all that matters for you, though?

3. Umm...wouldn't it be simply EWM if using spiked chain, Tempest if using dual scimitars? Am I missing something?

4. There are spells to help, but that would be relying on another party member. My favorite combo is 5 ranks in heal + healing lorecall (level 2, 10 min/level, SpC) + ANY cure spell, even cure minor wounds. Healing lorecall lets someone w/ 5+ heal ranks remove one condition from a list (fatigue is one of them) with any healing spell. If you have a nice DM and can get UMD +19, you can ask him to let you use a wand of healing lorecall, and count as the caster such that you can simply take 5 ranks and then wand of cure minor your way to perfect status.

One other option is from the DMG, the Horizon Walker Horizon Walker :: d20srd.org
One of the Terrain Masteries, Desert, makes you immune to fatigue. Only a one level dip needed. The requirements are a bit rough, though.

In regards to number 2 I'm just being greedy i guess. Tempest is tempting is all. But it looks like dervish is the way to go.

While you can use Dervish Dance with any weapon, you can gain attack/damage bonuses only when using slashing weapon(s). For Dervish, I'd rather use Glaive. You are continually moving. Even when you are not using Dervish Dance, a 5-foot step is usually enough. And as a Dervish, you should have Spring Attack feat and high Tumble skill. So threatening adjacent squares is not so important.

Why Glaive over Halberd? And spiked chain is for two weapon fighting. I'm not gonna have as high a BaB any way so I was thinking TWF tree.

Get two levels of ranger. There's a feat that allows your ranger levels to stack with Scout levels for the purposes of Favored Enemy and Skirmishing... Swift Hunter, I believe.

Mobility is available as a bonus feat for Scouts.

I knew there was something out there like this.

 

[Shin Okada]

Why Glaive over Halberd? And spiked chain is for two weapon fighting. I'm not gonna have as high a BaB any way so I was thinking TWF tree.

I prefer Glaive over Halberd, because when you are using Spring Attack or Dervish Dance, having a reach weapon is still a good thing. Often you can move so that you end your not being adjacent to an enemy. Then if the said enemy has only 5-foot reach, you may make an AoO when the opponent come closer to hit you in melee. Also, this prevent the enemy from using a full attack against you.

And, how you use spiked chain for TWF? It is a two-handed weapon, like glaive or halberd. It is not a double weapon, too.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not sure what you mean. Did I double post.

No, i did.

In regards to number 2 I'm just being greedy i guess. Tempest is tempting is all. But it looks like dervish is the way to go.

Nothing wrong with optimizing, I was just asking. If you are, the dervish class was designed for dual scimitars...

And spiked chain is for two weapon fighting. I'm not gonna have as high a BaB any way so I was thinking TWF tree.

Spiked chain is not a double weapon, despite the picture of it. I thought you were doing spiked chain + unarmed or armor spikes or something. You can't TWf with just a spiked chain.

I knew there was something out there like this.

If you're only dropping two levels in ranger, not sure it's even worth it. Your skirmish improves by either +1d6 or +1 AC, depending, and you gain the ability to deal skirmish damage to a single enemy type that you normally couldn't. Your build is already feat-heavy, so while Swift Hunter (the ranger/scout feat) is incredibly powerful, not sure you should bother with it in your case. This is why I suggested the Mobility armor bonus, to save you a precious feat.

 

[Kylas]

Spiked chain is not a double weapon, despite the picture of it. I thought you were doing spiked chain + unarmed or armor spikes or something. You can't TWf with just a spiked chain.

Wow I consider myself to be pretty rules lawyery but I can't believe I went this long without knowing spike chain was not a double weapon. I feel so ashamed... so embarrassed. So forget spiked chain I'm going dual scimitars. Now that I think about it spiked chain would be SO overpowered if it could be used like that. I guess that was its appeal. Sorry for the confusion.


Another quick question, as it seems i have an extra feat or 2. Does Quick Reconnoiter and Deft Strike work the way I think they do? They are on pg 112 and 106 of complete adventurer. Will OR allow me to Deft strike without wasting a move action? If it does I'm assuming that it will only work for one attack. But does that mean I can OR on the final attack of a full attack?

Yes i know I need sneak attack for DS.