Shadowdancer's Hide in plain Sight

[Darkness]

Similarly, in the case of the shadowdancer, he has the supernatural ability to hide when he would otherwise not be able to. True seeing negates his use of that ability, so he cannot even make a Hide check in the first place.

The shadowdancer doesn't hide in the shadow, though, (she only needs to be within 10' of it, not in it) so whether someone can see through the shadow is irrelevant.

Besides, the same reasoning works with darkvision too and darkvision negating HiPS is a silly idea.

 

[Thanee]

Even better, let's ask both so we have two answers - hopefully the same answers.

Well, at least they're not Chris & Steve.

Sorry, Chris & Steve!

Bye
Thanee

 

[FireLance]

The shadowdancer doesn't hide in the shadow, though, (she only needs to be within 10' of it, not in it) so whether someone can see through the shadow is irrelevant.

Besides, the same reasoning works with darkvision too and darkvision negating HiPS is a silly idea.

Um, I think you might have misunderstood my post. I wasn't suggesting that a shadowdancer had to hide in a shadow, only that the shadowdancer's supernatural ability to hide can be negated by true seeing in much the same way that true seeing sees through darkness (the spell, not the moderator) . It does so by preventing him from using magic to make a Hide check if he would otherwise not be able to.

 

[Thanee]

The shadowdancers ability allows the use of hide in circumstances where it would otherwise not be allowed. True sight does nothing about hiding creatures. Therefore, true sight does nothing in this case.

Then Hide in Plain Side is "simply hiding"? Because only that is what foils True Seeing.

I just fail to see how a supernatural ability can be simple and mundane (which is, if you read the whole sentence, the obvious meaning of "simply" there).

Anyways, it's the difference between going by the list in True Seeing as the word or the spirit of the rule. I do the latter and extrapolate accordingly, UG does the first and uses it as a finite set of conditions.

Not really a problem, to me at least, just two different viewpoints on what the rules represent.

I just object to saying my opinion is wrong, unless there is a proof, that the first version is the only one that is right, and you certainly will have trouble to find such a thing.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Besides, the same reasoning works with darkvision too and darkvision negating HiPS is a silly idea.

The last time I checked, Darkvision could not pierce "magical darkness". And that's essentially, what HiPS does, cover the shadowdancer behind some kind of magical shadow effect (whatever that is exactly is not explained, there are only the hints, that it is magical and has to do with shadow in some way).

With Deeper Darkvision I would probably allow the observer to see the shadowdancer, too. There simply is nothing to hide behind then... and even the shadowdancer does need that to hide... just that it is provided by him- or herself and the HiPS ability, so there is no need for a previously existing condition, the ability generates that condition, basically.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

As for the Ranger ability of the same name, it only works in natural terrain which kind of makes sense for a Ranger. There are too many movies to name as an example where someone is hiding in plain sight (Predator after the waterfall with Schwarzenegger in the mud comes to mind) in natural terrain. That doesn't seem too far fetched or outrageous for a Ranger of that level.

Well, with the mud as a chameleon-like skin, he still didn't hide in plain sight, but normally. everyone can do that in D&D with the Hide skill.

The ranger can effectively vanish under observation - according to the ability - in a completely plain area covered with 1"-high grass, while wearing a bright orange cape and carrying a 10-ft. pole.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

I wasn't suggesting that a shadowdancer had to hide in a shadow, only that the shadowdancer's supernatural ability to hide can be negated by true seeing in much the same way that true seeing sees through darkness (the spell, not the moderator) . It does so by preventing him from using magic to make a Hide check if he would otherwise not be able to.

This doesnt follow. As darkness said useing the same logic then darkvision would also negate hide in plain sight, and there is no reason to assume that to be the case.

True seeing does not prevent one from useing this ability, it doesnt even negate it, it has no ability to effect hide.

SRD:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.


It doesnt matter if the person can see through the shadow, all that the shadowdancer cares about is that there is a shadow.

All that this ability does is make the character able to use his hide skill in a very strange circumstance. True seeing does nothing about hide. Nor does being able to see through the shadows have any effect.

Then Hide in Plain Side is "simply hiding"? Because only that is what foils True Seeing.

I will quote you the relevant part.

SRD:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

So yes, it is simply hiding. All that this ability does is take away a restriction and replace it with another.

Hide in plain sight is simply that, hiding. It grants an ability not many get true, but that is no reason to make true seeing foil it, especially without any reason to based on the spell description.

The last time I checked, Darkvision could not pierce "magical darkness". [IB]And that's essentially, what HiPS does, cover the shadowdancer behind some kind of magical shadow effect [/B]

You are simply making this up from your own imagination. Which is fine for your own games, not so good for this forum.

All that is needed is for the shadowdancer to have a shadow nearby, who can percieve it is irrelevant, and he can hide. Simple as that.

There is nothing explaining exactly what happens, so by the raw true seeing will not effect it. Because true seeing does not effect hiding. All that the hide in plain sight ability lets you do is hide while being observed while there is a shadow nearby. It takes away one restriction and replaces it with another, but it is still just the hide skill that is working here.

 

[Thanee]

So yes, it is simply hiding. All that this ability does is take away a restriction and replace it with another.

That's hiding... not simply hiding... well, to me at least.

Besides... "simply hiding" is not defined in the RAW, so has no significant meaning, anyways.

(see below)

You are simply making this up from your own imagination.

Absolutely, I never said anything else here, or did I?

The rules are not sufficient to cover this case. Therefore one has to make up a solution.

Which is fine for your own games, not so good for this forum.

But you did read the original post, did you?

There is nothing explaining exactly what happens, so by the raw true seeing will not effect it. Because true seeing does not effect hiding.

That's undefined by the RAW, plain and simple. There is no rule in either direction.

The term "simply hiding" is not defined. You cannot say (well you can, but it's not true ) that "simply hiding" means what you think it does, because there is no rule, which states, what "simply hiding" means.

It's left to the reader to guess what they mean with that phrase.

To you it's using the Hide skill in any variation, to me it's using the Hide skill as described under the Hide skill without the addition of supernatural abilities and the like.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

if you wish to interpret 'simply hiding' as something other than 'hiding' that is your own deal.

Hiding is hiding, all hide in plain sight does is modify when you can use the hide skill.

When useing the hide skill to hide one is 'simply hiding' or 'hiding' or whatever you want to call it.

That is all there is to it. The ability allows one to hide, hide trumps true sight.

 

[FireLance]

This doesnt follow. As darkness said useing the same logic then darkvision would also negate hide in plain sight, and there is no reason to assume that to be the case.

True seeing does not prevent one from useing this ability, it doesnt even negate it, it has no ability to effect hide.

SRD:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

It doesnt matter if the person can see through the shadow, all that the shadowdancer cares about is that there is a shadow.

All that this ability does is make the character able to use his hide skill in a very strange circumstance. True seeing does nothing about hide. Nor does being able to see through the shadows have any effect.

Again, I agree with most of your points above, namely: Hide in Plain Sight allows a shadowdancer to use the Hide skill while being observed, and true seeing does nothing about Hide. Neither am I arguing that Hide in Plain Sight works by allowing a shadowdancer to hide in a shadow (he only needs to be within 10 feet of one).

I brought up magical darkness because it closely parallels how I see Hide in Plain Sight interacting with true seeing. Suppose a rogue was hiding in an area of magical darkness. He can make a Hide check because the magical darkness grants him concealment. He can even hide from creatures with darkvision because darkvision does not pierce magical darkness. However, against a cleric with true seeing, the rogue cannot make a Hide check because true seeing sees through darkness, and so the rogue would not have the concealment he needs to make a Hide check. The cleric would not automatically see the rogue if there was some mundane source of concealment that the rogue could use - undergrowth or a curtain, for example. True seeing would not prevent the rogue from making a Hide check if he was normally able to. However, if his only source of concealment was magical darkness, true seeing would defeat that and prevent him from making a Hide check (and thus, he would be automatically spotted).

Similarly, with the Shadowdancer, the Hide in Plain Sight ability allows him to hide when he otherwise is not able to. Since it is a supernatural ability, magic is involved, unlike the Ranger's extraordinary Hide in Plain Sight ability. Because magic is involved, it does not work against a cleric with true seeing. The shadowdancer can still hide normally, and true seeing will not work against that. However, Hide in Plain Sight is not possible.

Consider this scenario: a rogue is hiding in normal darkness (only - no other source of cover or concealment) 50 feet from a human, an elf and a dwarf carrying a hooded lantern (bright light to 30 feet, shadowy illumination to 60 feet). I would allow the rogue to attempt a Hide check against the human (shadowy illumination to 60 feet), but not the dwarf (darkvision 60 feet) or the elf (low-light vision - bright light to 60 feet). The dwarf and elf would be able to see the rogue regardless of his Hide check because as far as they are concerned, he has no concealment to hide in.

In just the same way that darkvision and low-light vision allow the dwarf and the elf to automatically see the rogue by making the normal darkness irrelevant, true seeing allows the cleric to see the rogue hiding in magical darkness by making it irrelevant, and allows him to see the shadowdancer hiding in plain sight by making that ability irrelevant.