Shadowdancer's Hide in plain Sight

FireLance said:
The argument above is basically that the list of items that true seeing can see through is exhaustive. While it is fine to take that position, it would imply that the list of items that true seeing cannot see through is also exhaustive.

No, that is not implied.

The list it penetrates is exhaustive examples but the list of what it cannot penetrate are also examples. Anything not listed is not penetrated. That is the way the rest of the game works as well.

Thanee said:
I'm still waiting for the quote from the RAW, which says, that "simply hiding" does include supernatural abilities

umm.. yeah, I am waiting for you to prove that simply hiding does not mean the same as hiding.

The hide skill is the hide skill and the hide skill is what is being used. Hide in plain sight simply modifies when the hide skill can be used.

Do you have anything to prove that simply hiding doesnt simply mean useing the hide skill?
 

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Scion said:
umm.. yeah, I am waiting for you to prove that simply hiding does not mean the same as hiding.

Do you have anything to prove that simply hiding doesnt simply mean useing the hide skill?

As I said already, I have not, and I do not need to, since I do not claim, that my interpretation is the only viable one. You do, so prove it or shut up! ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
As I said already, I have not, and I do not need to, since I do not claim, that my interpretation is the only viable one. You do, so prove it or shut up! ;)

I'll go through this slowly, just for you.



SRD:
HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

True Seeing
Divination
Level: Clr 5, Drd 7, Knowledge 5, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.
Material Component: An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.



Useing the hide skill normally is dissallowed via being seen. Hide in plain sight removes this ability somehow (it doesnt matter how in this case because we are going by the raw and not houserules and the exact method isnt specified). Now the shadowdancer can hide.

He is hiding.

True sight comes along. Seeing things as they actually are? the shadowdancer is hiding, no help.

True sight says that it does not help against people who are hiding. Sure, it says simply hiding, hide as the skill seems to be the most simple hiding that there is. Luckily the ability of the class modified the conditions under which it can be used, but not how it works.

So, since the hide skill is being used, and it doesnt get any more basic than that, I think you will have to come up with some very convincing evidence that makes hiding not hiding.
 

Scion said:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): ...

But the shadowdancer is supernaturally (= magical) hiding... not simply (= mundane (see rest of sentence where that part is from) = non-magical) hiding... :p

If they had written... "hiding" instead of "simply hiding", and if they had not mentioned this within a myriad of other "mundane" methods of obfuscation (mundane secret doors as opposed to magical secret doors, mundane disguise as opposed to magical disguise), then you certainly would have a point there, but as it stands... you just refer to "hiding" and ignore the "simply", but it's there.

* * * * *​

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, ...

magical darkness (plus regular "darkvision")

...notices secret doors hidden by magic, ...

magically hidden secret doors

...sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, ...

magical concealment effects

...sees through illusions, ...

magical illusions

...and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.

magical disguises

* * * * *​

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects.

mundane objects

It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like.

mundane concealment

(Altho, it does just say "concealment", the paragraph before tells us, it is effective against magical concealment, so obviously it cannot just be "concealment".)

The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, ..., sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures ...

True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, ...

mundane disguises

...spot creatures who are simply hiding, ...

mundane hiding

...or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.

mundane secret doors

* * * * *​

Notice the trend?

However...

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical ...

Bye
Thanee
 
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Scion said:
True sight says that it does not help against people who are hiding. Sure, it says simply hiding, hide as the skill seems to be the most simple hiding that there is. Luckily the ability of the class modified the conditions under which it can be used, but not how it works.

It very much changes how the skill works. Because simple hiding does not work at all in that situation. That's one pretty big change IMHO. ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

Scion said:
Useing the hide skill normally is dissallowed via being seen. Hide in plain sight removes this ability somehow (it doesnt matter how in this case because we are going by the raw and not houserules and the exact method isnt specified).

While this is true, and this lack of explanation is obviously the problem, it does give some hints, tho... it says, that the ability is supernatural and thus magical (it won't work in an anti-magic field, regardless of how simple hiding normally might be, without the magical portion, it simply doesn't work), and related to shadow (~ darkness) in some way, both of which True Seeing is effective against. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee said:
But the shadowdancer is supernaturally (= magical) hiding


It uses the hide skill. Unless you are going to say next that hiding behind something isnt simply hiding either? after all, it is useing a prop.


Thanee said:
Notice the trend?

yes, you are trying to draw conclusions that do not exist.

Hide skill trumps true seeing, hide in plain sight allows the use of hide in special circumstances, nothing in true seeing changes that.

yet again you have shown nothing useful. Only that you can draw conclusions that just dont make any sense given what is written.
 

It doesn't make sense, that supernatural abilities are magical (which is pretty directly in the RAW, really)?

That True Seeing is effective against magical stuff, but not against mundane stuff (which is a conclusion, that is hard to miss)?

Yeah, right! :D

Bye
Thanee
 

It is completely unimportant that hide in plain sight is magical, there is no bearing.

True seeing does not trump all magic, only certain kinds.

Hide is specifically not bypassed.

Hide is what is being used, with another ability which modifies it. same as having a cloak with a bonus to the check, a magical ability that is modifying the effect.

There isnt much of a difference there, in that magic has no bearing here. It is only certain things that true seeing trumps.

It matters not at all that hide in plain sight is magical. Hide wins.
 

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