Shadowdancer's Hide in plain Sight

[FireLance]

if you wish to interpret 'simply hiding' as something other than 'hiding' that is your own deal.

Hiding is hiding, all hide in plain sight does is modify when you can use the hide skill.

When useing the hide skill to hide one is 'simply hiding' or 'hiding' or whatever you want to call it.

That is all there is to it. The ability allows one to hide, hide trumps true sight.

See longer post above. But essentially, if you have a mundane source of concealment, you can make a Hide check normally against a character with true seeing. If you have an extraordinary ability to Hide in Plain Sight, you can make a Hide check normally against a character with true seeing. However, if you are relying on magical means (e.g. magical darkness, blur, or supernatural Hide in Plain Sight) to make a Hide check, you cannot do so against a character with true seeing.

 

[Scion]

If you have an extraordinary ability to Hide in Plain Sight, you can make a Hide check normally against a character with true seeing. However, if you are relying on magical means (e.g. magical darkness, blur, or supernatural Hide in Plain Sight) to make a Hide check, you cannot do so against a character with true seeing.

I have read both of your posts. Please prove what you are saying. Especially the last part, I see absolutely no reason at all for true seeing to make hide in plain sight unable to be used. Nothing in true seeing says anything like that, nothing in hide in plain sight says anything like that, there is no correlation there.

Hide in plain sight modifies when someone can use hide. True sight does nothing about that. Hide trumps true sight. Therefore, true sight does nothing here.

It doesnt matter that the hide in plain sight ability is supernatural, that is irrelavant. Why should it matter? A magical item that gives a boost to hide checks is also magical, and yet why would true sight cancel these out?

It doesnt matter if the character in question can see through the shadows as though they werent there for any reason (be it darkvision, true seeing, or anything else). All that matters is that they are there and the shadowdancer is close enough.

You obviously feel strongly about it not working, but there is nothing in any of the things in question to make it unuseable. Hide in plain sight simply changes when the character can use the hide skill, that is all. It doesnt matter if the person can see those shadows or not.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I brought up magical darkness because it closely parallels how I see Hide in Plain Sight interacting with true seeing. Suppose a rogue was hiding in an area of magical darkness. He can make a Hide check because the magical darkness grants him concealment. He can even hide from creatures with darkvision because darkvision does not pierce magical darkness. However, against a cleric with true seeing, the rogue cannot make a Hide check because true seeing sees through darkness, and so the rogue would not have the concealment he needs to make a Hide check. The cleric would not automatically see the rogue if there was some mundane source of concealment that the rogue could use - undergrowth or a curtain, for example. True seeing would not prevent the rogue from making a Hide check if he was normally able to. However, if his only source of concealment was magical darkness, true seeing would defeat that and prevent him from making a Hide check (and thus, he would be automatically spotted).

But in this case, Darkness is specifically called out as something True Seeing sees through. The shadowdancer's ability isn't. There may be some argument that the shadowdancer ability is an illusion effect (which would be defeated by True Seeing), but that's not currently supported by the description in the rules.

Because magic is involved, it does not work against a cleric with true seeing. The shadowdancer can still hide normally, and true seeing will not work against that.

The description of True Seeing doesn't say that it defeats all magical obfuscations. Rather, it specifically calls out what it can defeat. As Scion pointed out, a cloak of elvenkind provides a magical Hide bonus, but True Seeing doesn't overcome that effect either.

Consider this scenario: a rogue is hiding in normal darkness (only - no other source of cover or concealment) 50 feet from a human, an elf and a dwarf carrying a hooded lantern (bright light to 30 feet, shadowy illumination to 60 feet). I would allow the rogue to attempt a Hide check against the human (shadowy illumination to 60 feet), but not the dwarf (darkvision 60 feet) or the elf (low-light vision - bright light to 60 feet). The dwarf and elf would be able to see the rogue regardless of his Hide check because as far as they are concerned, he has no concealment to hide in.

Fine. Perfectly legitimate. The rogue cannot hide because he does not satisfy the conditions for hiding. But that's not the point of contention here. The point is specifically whether a shadowdancer's class ability is negated by True Seeing, and there's no indication that it is. If it is, then the shadowdancer cannot meet the conditions for hiding, but if it is not, then the shadowdancer meets those conditions and can hide. So far, there's been no compelling argument that this particular ability is negated by True Seeing. The shadowdancer can simply hide, in plain sight. Period. If you want a nice flavour-text description of how this fools true seeing, let's say that the shadows spiral out and engulf the shadowdancer with inky, murky, non-illusionary shadow-stuff (but not magical darkness), perhaps drawn from the plane of shadow itself, which provide the conditions necessary for hiding.

 

[FireLance]

(Please note that quotes are rearranged to better fit the flow of my post.)

It doesnt matter if the character in question can see through the shadows as though they werent there for any reason (be it darkvision, true seeing, or anything else). All that matters is that they are there and the shadowdancer is close enough.

You obviously feel strongly about it not working, but there is nothing in any of the things in question to make it unuseable. Hide in plain sight simply changes when the character can use the hide skill, that is all. It doesnt matter if the person can see those shadows or not.

As I have mentioned, being able to see through shadows is irrelevant to whether Hide in Plain Sight works. I only brought up magical darkness as an analogy. Shall we agree not discuss this point further, as it is only confusing the issue?

Hide in plain sight modifies when someone can use hide. True sight does nothing about that. Hide trumps true sight. Therefore, true sight does nothing here.

It doesnt matter that the hide in plain sight ability is supernatural, that is irrelavant. Why should it matter? A magical item that gives a boost to hide checks is also magical, and yet why would true sight cancel these out?

This is the crux of the matter. The Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability allows him to make a Hide check when he is otherwise not able to, but it is magical in nature. The question is how it interacts with true seeing.

The description of true seeing gives a laundry list of effects that it sees through: normal and magical darkness, secret doors hidden by magic, the locations of creatures and objects under blur or displacement effects, invisible creatures, illusions, the true form of polymorphed, changed or transmuted things. It appears to me that apart from normal darkness, the unifying characteristic of these effects is that they are magical in nature.

The spell description also gives a list of things it does not work against: it does not see through solid objects, does not negate concealment (though presumably, being able to see through darkness negates concealment from darkness), does not see through mundane disguises, spot creatures that are simply hiding, or secret doors hidden by mundane means. The unifying characteristic of these effects appears to be that they are non-magical in nature. As a case in point, true seeing detects secret doors hidden by magic, but not those hidden by mundane means.

While it is not explicitly stated that true seeing sees through all magical means that conceal, disguise or hide creatures and objects, it is certainly implied by the way the spell is written. As such, since the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability is magical in nature, I would rule that true seeing works against it.

As to why true seeing does not work against magical items that give a boost to Hide checks, it is because these items are not directly hiding the character, but are enhancing his own ability to hide. Flavor text notwithstanding, shadow armor and cloaks of elvenkind grant competence bonuses to Hide checks, which means that the character actually gets better at hiding. Thus, they work normally against a character with true seeing, provided the hider is able to make a Hide check in the first place.

I have read both of your posts. Please prove what you are saying. Especially the last part, I see absolutely no reason at all for true seeing to make hide in plain sight unable to be used. Nothing in true seeing says anything like that, nothing in hide in plain sight says anything like that, there is no correlation there.

I can't give an explicit statement that true seeing works against a Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight. The above is just how I would rule it based on my reading of the rules.

 

[Scion]

This is the crux of the matter. The Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability allows him to make a Hide check when he is otherwise not able to, but it is magical in nature. The question is how it interacts with true seeing.

I think you are getting hung up way too much on the (Su) tag.

Since true sight does not worry about hiding, and all hide in plain sight does is modify how hiding works, there isnt any reason for true sight to see through it.

Magical in nature? sure. Does it matter? nope, it only matters if it is on the list of things that true sight sees through, which it is not. Hiding trumps true sight.

::shrugs:: I can see why some people might houserule it for their own games, kindof, but I dont really see the point of it. Needless complication and exceptions that are outside of the rules. Might as well just let it roll. Hide works in conditions, hide in plain sight adjusts those conditions. Hide beats true sight.

Being a high level ability in a certain prc that only works under certain conditions, what is the problem?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Being a high level ability in a certain prc that only works under certain conditions, what is the problem?

Agreed. Don't waste your time casting True Seeing. Cast Daylight instead.

 

[Thanee]

But in this case, Darkness is specifically called out as something True Seeing sees through. The shadowdancer's ability isn't. There may be some argument that the shadowdancer ability is an illusion effect (which would be defeated by True Seeing), but that's not currently supported by the description in the rules.

Then what does the shadowdancer's ability represent?
How does the shadowdancer hide with nothing to hide behind?
How comes, that noone can see the shadowdancer, altho he is standing right in full view, with nothing blocking normal sight, no cover and no concealment?

The description of True Seeing doesn't say that it defeats all magical obfuscations.

No, but the effect of True Seeing is to see all things as they really are.

Rather, it specifically calls out what it can defeat...

...and what it cannot defeat, too.

Both lists are just examples, tho, to explain what it means to see all things as they really are.

As Scion pointed out, a cloak of elvenkind provides a magical Hide bonus, but True Seeing doesn't overcome that effect either.

Of course not, since you still have to hide behind a physical obstruction, which is the reason, why True Seeing doesn't work against mundane hiding, because it does not allow you to see through objects. You are not hiding behind the magic of the cloak, it just boosts your personal ability to hide... with HiPS, however, you are hiding behind the magic of the supernatural ability... since there is nothing else to hide behind.

Bye
Thanee

 

[FireLance]

But in this case, Darkness is specifically called out as something True Seeing sees through. The shadowdancer's ability isn't. There may be some argument that the shadowdancer ability is an illusion effect (which would be defeated by True Seeing), but that's not currently supported by the description in the rules.

Just one more add-on to my post above. The argument above is basically that the list of items that true seeing can see through is exhaustive. While it is fine to take that position, it would imply that the list of items that true seeing cannot see through is also exhaustive. That leave a whole other list of items (including supernatural Hide in Plain Sight) for which there is no explicit statement as to how it interacts with true seeing.

So, when it becomes necessary to make a ruling, I guess one of the following positions can be taken:

(a) True seeing only sees through what is explicitly stated, and nothing else.
(b) True seeing sees through everything except for the things it is explicitly stated that it does not.
(c) It is possible to extrapolate rules from the list of things that true seeing sees through and the list of things that it does not see through to determine how other effects interact with the spell on a case-by-case basis.

Some may adopt option (a) or (b). My preferred approach is to take option (c). In particular, I would rule that true seeing sees through magical means that conceal, disguise or hide creatures and objects, even if they are not explicitly stated in the spell description.

 

[Thanee]

I think you are getting hung up way too much on the (Su) tag.

Since true sight does not worry about hiding, and all hide in plain sight does is modify how hiding works, there isnt any reason for true sight to see through it.

Magical in nature? sure. Does it matter? nope, it only matters if it is on the list of things that true sight sees through, which it is not. Hiding trumps true sight.

I'm still waiting for the quote from the RAW, which says, that "simply hiding" does include supernatural abilities...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

Although I mostly agree with FireLance and Thanee......

True Seeing does not see through all forms of magical "obscuration" (or rather: concealment). Obscuring Mist and Wall of Fire come to mind.