Shadowrun d20?

[Geron Raveneye]

If you can plot the exact same results to a d20 roll as you can to your bucket of d6s roll, then how the heck can you claim that the "feel" is different?

I'm not sure, as I don't know you personally, but I guess you recognize yourself that the results of one "resolution system" cannot simply be mapped with the other. And the whole "more successes give better results" thingy is something I'd love to see in D&D...but the system doesn't have it in it. Simply tacking a "every 5 above the DC adds one success to the attempt" still doesn't do it.

So, in this case, the resolution mechanic alone already gives the whole game a different "feel". Especially where combat is concerned...and might I add that the damage system is one of those "gimmicks" another poster spoke of? An example where the rules are deeply ingrained into the way the game runs and feels?

As I stated already, I do believe you can take the Shadowrun setting and mold the d20 rules to it (whichever variant fits best ), and it will play okay. It just will be a different game from Shadowrun.

And I actually claim that the game had such a big success back when it came out the first time because it's concepts were so unlike AD&D. At least that was what drew me to it.

 

[GlassJaw]

By conversion, I'm talking about rendering the SR setting in d20, and any specific mechanics changes that drastically alter the feel.

Fair enough. And by this statement, you admit that there will be a difference in how the game plays, etc. I completely agree. I'm not saying it's good or bad....just different.

If you can plot the exact same results to a d20 roll as you can to your bucket of d6s roll, then how the heck can you claim that the "feel" is different?

Well you could say that about most systems. You could probably come close to duplicating the results of one system with any other system using completely different dice. Let's say some test has a 50% chance of succeeding. You could roll a traditional percentile die for the test. You could roll a d20 and call evens. You could flip a coin. All these would acheive the same desired result but would feel drastically different in-play.

You either have a different definition of conversion or a different definition of feel than I do

Or maybe both.

I guess I consider "feel" with respect to a game system as a more "intangible" descriptor. While it can certainly pertain to mechanics and numeric tests, I also think it has a lot to do with how you actually feel while playing the game. That may sound really corny but I actually play Shadowrun and D&D differently. Sure, a lot has to do with the setting but a lot also comes from the way actions are resolved.

Anyway, how about a truce?

The thread in the main forum is getting pretty heated too. I think the moral of the story is that the SR vs. d20 debate will never be resolved. I like the d20 system. I like the Shadowrun system. I like to play both. Best of both worlds.

 

[Desdichado]

Truce! You loser! Actually, I wasn't trying to come across as heated, so I don't need to truce up or anything. I never felt like we were fighting.

I guess I'm still nebulous on what you mean by feel, because I believe that with the write bolt-on d20 mod you can get just about any feel you can imagine.

Although maybe I understand more what you mean when you say you simply feel different playing D&D than SR. I know what you mean with that. However, I also feel differently playing d20 Cthulhu and D&D, so as long as the d20 is far enough removed from D&D to not feel like another D&D setting, it still works for me.

 

[GlassJaw]

I wasn't trying to come across as heated

Don't worry - I ain't mad atcha.

I guess I'm still nebulous on what you mean by feel

Well I'm nebulous on it too! Nebulous is a good word actually. I think that feel is just that. It can be mechanics, it can be the type of dice, it can ne the setting, it can be the people you play with.

However, I also feel differently playing d20 Cthulhu and D&D, so as long as the d20 is far enough removed from D&D to not feel like another D&D setting, it still works for me.

Hmm, point taken. I'll be the first to admit that I like the SR system because it's so far removed from d20. The GM that I usually play with is amazing and is really good at immersing everyone in the setting. I'm sure that has something to do with my view of SR. While I've played a lot of d20-based games, I still think of D&D when I hear "d20".

 

[ruleslawyer]

@ruleslawyer
The resolution system of Shadowrun is not really cluttered, or clunky. You roll at least 1d6 to reach a TN between 2 and 10. You have exploding dice, so you can reach that TNs above 6. Boni and penalties always go to the TN, instead of to your dice roll. Not that clunky, is it?

Try modeling the actual statistical probability of a character of x general skill level being able to make y general TN, and you'll see what I mean. It is literally an impossible task, because probabilities don't shift up and down neatly with increases or decreases in TNs.

The difference is that, if you have more dice, you have the chance of additional successes, with those giving you a reward on the effect you wanted to achieve. Which is something hard to model with d20, in my opinion. That's one of the core concepts of Shadowrun, that being better gives you more chances at having a greater effect than the basic one you reach with one success.

That's easy to model in d20, actually. You just add successes based on "every 5 points above the DC," etc. And, in any case, it doesn't actually make much sense in the SR rules, because the system doesn't model successes as a function of the probability of achieving the TN, but as a fluid mix of the probability and the sheer number of dice rolled, which are actually (the statistics are too complicated for me to lay out here) two different things.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Try modeling the actual statistical probability of a character of x general skill level being able to make y general TN, and you'll see what I mean. It is literally an impossible task, because probabilities don't shift up and down neatly with increases or decreases in TNs.

Now that's weird...and here I thought that, the more dice you have to roll, the better your chances are that one of them is going to roll the number you need to beat the TN. Like with a "standard" TN of 4...which is 50% on 1d6. So if you have 5d6 to roll, the chances that one of them shows up 4 or higher are better than with just 1d6.

That's easy to model in d20, actually. You just add successes based on "every 5 points above the DC," etc. And, in any case, it doesn't actually make much sense in the SR rules, because the system doesn't model successes as a function of the probability of achieving the TN, but as a fluid mix of the probability and the sheer number of dice rolled, which are actually (the statistics are too complicated for me to lay out here) two different things.

Well, do me a favour and, when you got the time, try to explain that to me, maybe in an email, if you'd prefer. I always was under the impression that the number of dice rolled was directly tied to calculating the possibility to have a certain number of "successes" at a certain TN.
Anyway, simply adding successes based on "by every 5 you beat the DC" to d20 is by far not the same...as skill and attribute (and whatever else) modifiers are added in a linear fashion in d20, it doesn't even come close to model the success-based results of Shadowrun, in my opinion...but it certainly would make for a nice improvement over the "You got a 23? That's nice, the DC was 10, so you succed. It still takes as long as if you had rolled a 10, though." we got for most skills at the moment.

 

[thylath]

http://www.geocities.com/grinningkat

 

[Geoff Watson]

@ruleslawyer
The resolution system of Shadowrun is not really cluttered, or clunky. You roll at least 1d6 to reach a TN between 2 and 10. You have exploding dice, so you can reach that TNs above 6. Boni and penalties always go to the TN, instead of to your dice roll. Not that clunky, is it?

Not exactly. You left out that some things that change difficulty change the number of successes you need, rather than the target number. I'm not certain, but IIRC other penalties mean you roll fewer dice.

What effect each source of modifier has seems to be random.

Geoff.

 

[Michelle Lyons]

The Seekrit Reason Shadowrun Will Never Be D20.

Well, okay. It's not really secret, but there is a reason.

First, it is not true that the authors hate d20. Given that Steve Kenson still regularly takes a hand in SR projects and I'm a regular line editor and sometime author, I don't see how the "d20 Hater" label can be made to stick. And while my name might not be recognizable, I don't see how Steve's name couldn't be to any d20phile. Lots of them are fairly attached to SR as their game of choice, but it's not like anyone I know of uses pictures of d20s stuck to a wall for target practice.

The real reason is that when given a choice between converting to a new system he wasn't terribly familiar with (and had never designed for) and working with what he knew would work, Rob chose to go with the latter. He's not a d20 design guru, and he doesn't want to put stuff out there just to have a d20 label on it. He felt he couldn't effectively develop or edit that rules set and put out the quality of product he wanted, so it didn't happen. I mean, if a d20 SR rules set were going to be released, it would have to be of superb quality. Anything else would be shooting yourself in the foot. I think it's very wise of him not to jump into something for the sake of slapping a d20 label on it at the risk of angering a good chunk of the consumer base.

Personally, I think it would be loads of fun to make a d20 Shadowrun book. I'm not holding my breath on it, though. As it is, I'm pretty happy with what's coming up for SR4, and I'm looking forward to GenCon.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Not exactly. You left out that some things that change difficulty change the number of successes you need, rather than the target number. I'm not certain, but IIRC other penalties mean you roll fewer dice.

What effect each source of modifier has seems to be random.

Geoff.

I hope you don't mind me asking you where you got that from, as I haven't heard of that kind of penalty handling in SR...so far, I admit, as I haven't played 3E much at all, and still prefer 1E...and there you only raised the TN to show increasing difficulty.