Shadowrun d20?

jeff37923 said:
I think I see the crux of the matter, here. OK, I am not an anti-d20 evangelist nor do I believe that the d20 mechanic is suitable for all genres - I believe in using the best possible tool for the job. In games, that may be d20 and it may not - its a situational thing based upon a lot of variables for the game. I do think that no system is perfect for everything.
However, I do think that the bucketful-of-d6s ruleset for SR actually would be better served by replacing it with d20. But I've already ranted on this on the General Discussion board.

L5R is an excellent example of a system that's sorta integral to the game; heck, Diplomacy is an example of that too! However, SR is and always has been a game in which heavily-amped characters with attributes that mirror d20 characters (Str, Int, Cha, etc.) down to racial mods and spell-enhanced ability scores roll ungodly numbers of dice to hit increasingly difficult DCs... er, target numbers. It's not really that different from d20. More to the point: It's clunky. The probabilities simply don't make sense and are insufficiently granular, and that would be neatly solved by a d20 ruleset. Wish someone would just write a conversion...
 

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@Joshua

I'm not trying to sell d20 short, no worries...I've seen far too much of what the system is really capable of to think it's a one-trick pony. D&D, now that's a different matter. I agree with you that, if you take the d20 system and mold it to the game concerned you want to handle with the d20 rules, you will come up with a fitting result. Note that I'm differentiating between game, setting and system for the simple reason that the latter two make up the first, in my opinion. Contrary to what I've been told a few times by now, I believe that a combination of rules system + setting = game flavour.

The thing is, Oriental Adventures was D&D. As it should be. Rokugan d20 was the setting backdrop for that. As such, you get D&D rules on the Rokugan setting background. It certainly makes for an interesting game, it just isn't L5R. There's too much of a difference between the rules that represent how reality works in the respective games. And example? In D&D, attributes are important for skill check resolution at lowest levels, moderately so at mid-level and negligient at high levels, except if you have pushed them to extraordinary scores through magic. In L5R, your attributes define the basis of your success, but don't limit it. They are highly important for skill check resolution all through your career. The same goes for magic. You don't simply get a few meager bonus spells by a high attribute...your element ring score determines how many spells you can cast per day. Two totally different animals.

That's why both games have a completely different, and individual feel. And I dare say that if somebody took a shot at modelling L5R with what tools d20 gives today, compared to what D&D gave 3-4 years ago, we'd probably have a game that's as close to L5R as you can get. But then I wonder why we need to create a new ruleset, and not play with the one already in place. The rules are not harder to understand than a d20 variation on the game is when you're used to D&D. ;) Or do some people only play an RPG if it's got the d20 logo on the cover? That's the same for a d20 cyberpunk game, by the way. With today's d20 tools, we could probably create a fitting ruleset to run the Shadowrun background and get an equivalent game. But what for? I can't believe any RPGer worth his salt being so biased that he'd gladly wrap his mind around a d20fied Shadowrun game, but claim that learning a new rules system is too time-intensive.

@ruleslawyer
The resolution system of Shadowrun is not really cluttered, or clunky. You roll at least 1d6 to reach a TN between 2 and 10. You have exploding dice, so you can reach that TNs above 6. Boni and penalties always go to the TN, instead of to your dice roll. Not that clunky, is it?
The difference is that, if you have more dice, you have the chance of additional successes, with those giving you a reward on the effect you wanted to achieve. Which is something hard to model with d20, in my opinion. That's one of the core concepts of Shadowrun, that being better gives you more chances at having a greater effect than the basic one you reach with one success. And your TNs shouldn't go up to "ungodly" numbers either. Between 2 and 12 is about what you should face.
 

I like Shadowrun. I like d20. Do I want Shadowrun to go d20? Absolutely not.

There are just too many things that wouldn't translate well at all. Part of the feel of SR is the ruleset. Too much would be lost in translation: no armor class, the magic system, saving throws, etc. The list goes on.
 


GlassJaw said:
There are just too many things that wouldn't translate well at all. Part of the feel of SR is the ruleset. Too much would be lost in translation: no armor class, the magic system, saving throws, etc. The list goes on.
You either have a different definition of conversion or a different definition of feel than I do. Things like AC or Saving throws don't have any feel in and of themselves, and if you're talking about them being out of the question, then you're already talking about updating the SR system with a few borrowings from d20 and not a d20 conversion at all.

To me, feel is broader than "this game has this specific mechanic." Combat being something the PCs are good at vs. being something the PCs are afraid of because the potential of a quick death is very real is an example of feel. Fast-paced narrative combat vs. tactical miniatures based combat is an example of feel. Incremental and broad power escalation across BAB, HP, skill points and more via levels vs. granular power progression via one skill point at a time is an example of feel.

Saving throws and AC are not feel.

And your complaint about the magic system doesn't make sense. I know you're a big fan of Grim Tales and thus realize that there is no "d20 magic system" that's based on D&D; that's only one option of many. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say there at all.
 

To me, feel is broader than "this game has this specific mechanic."

Specific mechanics drastically change the feel of a game IMO. I ovbiuosly wasn't clear in my abbreviated post but my main point is that trying to duplicate the SR rules in d20 will make it a very different game.

Sure there is no definitive d20 magic system but trying to convert the SR magic system to d20 wil make it feel different. Heck, the fact that you only roll d6's in SR makes it feel different than d20!

Saving throws and AC are not feel.

But if SR suddenly had them, the system would play differently. In my view, mechanics greatly affect the feel of a game. I'm not talking setting here. Just how actions are determined. Rolling a d20 once and trying to get a specific value is incredibly different than rolling a bunch of d6's and counting the number of successes. The fact that there are stages of success greatly affects the feel of the game as well.

Hypothetically, if you took the best SR d20 conversion ever (best.conversion.ever) and played it alongside the SR version it was based, they would still remain drastically different games.
 

GlassJaw said:
Sure there is no definitive d20 magic system but trying to convert the SR magic system to d20 wil make it feel different. Heck, the fact that you only roll d6's in SR makes it feel different than d20!

I am a Shadowrun fan, and definately someone who is happy to see Shadowrun will be keeping its original mechanic (albeit streamlined), but I find that argument silly. The Shadowrun mechanic has no gimmick, which makes it as generic a base mechanic as that of d20. You could absolutely make a d20 Shadowrun, and (with proper writing) it would absolutely feel like Shadowrun. Of course could and should are very different animals.

I reserve the 'd20 can't as easily replicate this system' for systems that have some gimmick that ties directly into the setting (i.e. the poker chips and playing cards used by a wild west game or the d666 mechanic used to resolve a game with religous themes). Those mechanics are so directly tied to the game that a conversion really does feel different. Shadowrun doesn't belong to that group.

Once again, I don't see a need for every game to be converted to d20. Some games have their own mechanics, themed or not, that the designers are very proud of and the fans enjoy. We could do with a few less anti-d20 zealots and a few less d20 evangelists, if you ask me (which you didn't, admittedly).

IMHO/YMMV
 

GlassJaw said:
Specific mechanics drastically change the feel of a game IMO. I ovbiuosly wasn't clear in my abbreviated post but my main point is that trying to duplicate the SR rules in d20 will make it a very different game.
Yes and no. Some specific mechanics are designed to give a specific feel, others are just simple resolution and one isn't any different really than another. Like I said earlier, 2+2 is 4, but so is 3+1 and 6-2. They are all ways of arriving at the same result.

Besides, who said anything at all about trying to duplicate the SR rules in d20? That wouldn't be a conversion, that would be some kind of strange hybrid. By conversion, I'm talking about rendering the SR setting in d20, and any specific mechanics changes that drastically alter the feel. And by feel, I mean the kinds of things I mentioned in my last post. Rolling d6s instead of d20s is not an example of a game's feel.
GlassJaw said:
But if SR suddenly had them, the system would play differently. In my view, mechanics greatly affect the feel of a game. I'm not talking setting here. Just how actions are determined. Rolling a d20 once and trying to get a specific value is incredibly different than rolling a bunch of d6's and counting the number of successes. The fact that there are stages of success greatly affects the feel of the game as well.
Stages of success already exist in d20 for some skills, and are easily implemented for the rest. Heck, some of us that have played a number of systems over the years already do it in d20 instinctively anyway. Now, that would be an example of something that I think has a feel to it. Rolling d6s vs d20 does not. Both are feel neutral; they're simply methods of resolution. If you can plot the exact same results to a d20 roll as you can to your bucket of d6s roll, then how the heck can you claim that the "feel" is different? You do realize that by feel, we're talking about things like tone, theme, risk evaluation; things that actually have a noticable affect on gameplay. How the dice literally feel in your hand is irrelevent. :lol:
GlassJaw said:
Hypothetically, if you took the best SR d20 conversion ever (best.conversion.ever) and played it alongside the SR version it was based, they would still remain drastically different games.
Since Shadowrun has always been little more than D&D in a cyberpunk-ish setting with a system that's largely arbitrarily different (rather than different because it's doing something unique or evocative of the genre it's trying to emulate) it's my opinion that that statement is not only incorrect, but that it's outrageously so. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, Urban Arcana + some elements of d20 Future is already pretty much the same game without even doing conversion, and adopting the SR setting specific material that that game is a cinch.
 
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GlassJaw said:
I like Shadowrun. I like d20. Do I want Shadowrun to go d20? Absolutely not.
Well, I'm not asking that SR convert to d20. All I'm asking is grant a game publisher to do a d20 version while FanPro concentrate on the original line.
 

I'm a huge D20 fan. I'm sold on it. I've used it to play everything from fantasy to modern-day cop dramas to super heroes with only a few rules changes. The setting set the tone of the games, not the fact that I rolled a D20 or a D6. D20 may not do everything perfectly, but it gets it right a LOT more than it gets it wrong. As far as SW D20 is concerned, it's a much more cinematic game than the WEG version. The WEG version was clunky and not very fun IMO. With the whole Stormtrooper bit, with the rules in place for common foes (all damage goes directly to wounds); there are very few times that a Stormtrooper will live through a single blaster shot. Once they face a character of 4-5th level or better, they are nothing but kindling.

Would I like to see a SR version in D20? Sure. I'd buy it, mine the heck out of it, but I'd likely never play in the setting itself.

Kane
 

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