D&D (2024) Shillelagh, Staff and PAM

ECMO3

Legend
Looking at the PAM feat, it is significantly nerfed in general, but I am thinking about combining it with a Staff and the Shillelagh cantrip.

Shillelagh changes the damage dice of the spear to a 1d8 to 1d12 depending on level. PAM changes the damage die to a 1d4 for the bonus action attack. I am wondering which one of these takes precedence.

On the face this seems like a huge boost, but on the other hand you are giving up a low damage attack to cast Shillelagh.
 

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I disagree that PAM has been nerfed. Still gives you a bonus action 1d4 attack and a reaction attack when an enemy enters your reach. The only difference is it gives a +1 ASI (buff) works with lances now (buff) and the reaction attack doesn’t count as an opportunity attack (nerf in combination with Sentinel but otherwise a wash). Overall, it’s mostly buffed.
 

I am 100% confident that the PAM attack remains 1d4. What Shillelagh does will be to let you add your ability modifier (WIS for Shillelagh) to the bonus action attack.

So with Shillelagh and PAM, your main attack is 1d8 (scaling)+WIS, PAM lets you do 1d4+WIS. Extra attack and the q'staff's mastery also come into effect if your character has those abilities.
 

I am 100% confident that the PAM attack remains 1d4. What Shillelagh does will be to let you add your ability modifier (WIS for Shillelagh) to the bonus action attack.

So with Shillelagh and PAM, your main attack is 1d8 (scaling)+WIS, PAM lets you do 1d4+WIS. Extra attack and the q'staff's mastery also come into effect if your character has those abilities.

That is an interpretation, but I don't really see rule support for it though over the other and was wondering about that. The wording on the spell specifically says it changes the weapons damage die, which is the exact same wording as used in the new PAM for the bonus attack (disclaimer - I am going by the wording available at sites online).

Also it is not just 1d8+modifier, Shillelagh scales to 1d10 and then 1d12 at higher levels.
 

I disagree that PAM has been nerfed. Still gives you a bonus action 1d4 attack and a reaction attack when an enemy enters your reach. The only difference is it gives a +1 ASI (buff) works with lances now (buff) and the reaction attack doesn’t count as an opportunity attack (nerf in combination with Sentinel but otherwise a wash). Overall, it’s mostly buffed.

It is nerfed IMO in relative comparison to other things in the rules. It used to be one of the three highest damage feats in the rules and had particular synergy with GWM and Sentinel allowing a huge damage boost.

It is a combination of not working with GWM any more and the new dual wielding feat which allows 2 attacks as a bonus action at level 4, doing much higher damage with your bonus action (technically while also being able to use a shield and having a better AC).
 

It is nerfed IMO in relative comparison to other things in the rules. It used to be one of the three highest damage feats in the rules and had particular synergy with GWM and Sentinel allowing a huge damage boost.

It is a combination of not working with GWM any more and the new dual wielding feat which allows 2 attacks as a bonus action at level 4, doing much higher damage with your bonus action (technically while also being able to use a shield and having a better AC).
Dual wielder only allows one more attack than your character would otherwise be able to make with a bonus action, the same number of additional attacks as PAM gives you. And yes, the bonus action attack will have a bigger damage die - up to a d10 or a d8 with a shield if you’re gaming the weapon swapping rules. But the attack you’re making with your action is a smaller damage die than the one you’re making with PAM - up to a d6 compared to PAM’s d10, or d6 with a shield. And DW doesn’t give you a reaction attack, which PAM does.

All told, PAM brings you from 5.5 +Str DPR (or 3.5 + Str with a shield) to 13.5 + 2xStr DPR (or 9.5 + 2xStr with a shield). DW brings you from 7 + Str or Dex DPR to 13.5 + Str or Dex DPR (or 12.5 + Str or Dex with a shield), assuming Nick mastery for the DW user. Pretty comparable overall.
 

That is an interpretation, but I don't really see rule support for it though over the other and was wondering about that. The wording on the spell specifically says it changes the weapons damage die, which is the exact same wording as used in the new PAM for the bonus attack (disclaimer - I am going by the wording available at sites online).
It's absolutely an interpretation. I have no inside information, but I remain certain that this is both the intent and whatever the sage advice/other clarification will decide.

Also it is not just 1d8+modifier, Shillelagh scales to 1d10 and then 1d12 at higher levels.
Yes -- that's why I said "(scaling)".
 


Dual wielder only allows one more attack than your character would otherwise be able to make with a bonus action, the same number of additional attacks as PAM gives you. And yes, the bonus action attack will have a bigger damage die - up to a d10 or a d8 with a shield if you’re gaming the weapon swapping rules. But the attack you’re making with your action is a smaller damage die than the one you’re making with PAM - up to a d6 compared to PAM’s d10, or d6 with a shield. And DW doesn’t give you a reaction attack, which PAM does.

Dual Wielder feat combined with Light property allows up to 2 extra attacks using TWF (so at level 5 that is 4 attacks total). This is explicitly how the wording is RAW, stating it is an "extra attack" and it is RAI as confirmed by Jeremy Crawford that Dual Wielder gives another attack on top of the Light weapon property attack (if applicable) when the Dungeon Dudes asked him at Gen Con.

RAI you are supposed to be able to go for example with twin shortswords, one in each hand, and go 2 attacks as an action and 2 more attacks as a bonus action if you have the dual wielder feat. This is confirmed RAI and even this simple example will outrun PAM I think. PAM with a d10 weapon is doing 4 more on the attack action but 4.5+STR less on the bonus action.

RAW is more complicated since the weapons don't need to be in hand to use either the light weapon or dual wielding property, and you can take your light weapon attack separately from your duel wielding bonus action "extra attack" if you have nick on one of the light weapons. You can actually wield a shield and starting with a shield and shortsword in hand you can:

action - Shortsword
action - Shortsword
Nick - Scimitar
Bonus action - Dual Wielding attack Longsword.

Next turn starting with the longsword in hand you can go:
action - Longsword
action - Shortsword
Nick - Scimitar
Bonus action - Dual Wielding attack with Scimitar

You can do all that while wearing a shield RAW. If you grab a second fighting style through a multiclass you can put dueling damage on all of those. As an alternative, if you do not have a shield you can use versatile and 1d10 for the longsword attack. As an alternative
 
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Dual Wielder feat combined with Light property allows up to 2 extra attacks using TWF (so at level 5 that is 4 attacks total). This is explicitly how the wording is RAW, stating it is an "extra attack" and it is RAI as confirmed by Jeremy Crawford that Dual Wielder gives another attack on top of the Light weapon property attack (if applicable) when the Dungeon Dudes asked him at Gen Con.
I took that into account. 4 attacks per turn at 5th level is only 1 more attack per turn than any martial character using two Light weapons can make without the Dual Wielder feat, so my assessment of the Feat increasing your DPR by 1d8 (1d10 or 1d8 with a shield with weapon swapping cheese) is accurate.
RAI you are supposed to be able to go for example with twin shortswords, one in each hand, and go 2 attacks as an action and 2 more attacks as a bonus action if you have the dual wielder feat.
Well, no, you’d need at least one of the weapons to be a scimitar, and to have used one of your weapon Masteries for scimitars. You can’t use your bonus action to attack with the Light property and use your bonus action to attack with Dual Wielder. However, you can use the Nick Mastery to attack with the Light property as part of the Attack action and use your bonus action to attack with Dual Wielder. The other Light weapon can be a shortsword though, which is probably optimal.
This is confirmed RAI and even this simple example will outrun PAM I think. PAM with a d10 weapon is doing 4 more on the attack action but 4.5+STR less on the bonus action.
You’re comparing apples and oranges.

At 5th level, a glaive, halberd, or pike user is doing 5.5+Str and applying their mastery effect on each of two attacks, for a total of 19 DPR, assuming 18 Strength. A scimitar and shortsword user at the same level with the same Strength or Dex Mod is doing 3.5+Str or Dex and applying Vex on each of two attacks and 3.5 on their Nick attack, for a total of 18.5 DPR. Half a point less damage, but more consistently due to it being split between three attacks and two of those attacks being made with advantage, but at the cost of not getting to apply an on-hit effect like Graze, Push, or Cleave, and at a 5 foot reach instead of 10. Both characters still have a bonus action available.

Add on PAM, and the polearm user gets another attack with their bonus action, dealing 2.5+Str damage (so +6.5 total in our example), and they get a third application of their mastery effect. Likewise the two-weapon user can make another attack with their bonus action if they take DW, which can be with any weapon that lacks the two-handed property, but they don’t add their ability mod to that damage, so it’s +4.5, assuming they use a rapier for dex or a longsword for str. No extra mastery effect, since this strategy already uses both mastery slots on scimitar and shortsword. If you want to assume the two-weapon user is abusing the weapon swapping cheese, they can make that +5.5 if they’re strength based by two-handing the longsword, or they can stick to +4.5 and end up with a shield equipped.

Far from outshining the PAM user’s DPR, the PAM user actually pulls further ahead by 1 DPR, even assuming weapon swapping cheese (or pulling 2 points ahead and falling 2 AC behind if the dual wielder uses weapon swapping cheese for a shield instead of a versatile weapon).

This is all before accounting for Fighting Styles, of course. If we also consider Fighting Styles, the dual wielder gets an extra 8 DPR from the Two-Weapon Fighting style (+Mod to the two attacks that didn’t benefit from it), while the Polearm user doesn’t benefit as much in the DPR department, getting only about +1.05 DPR from the Great Weapon style. However, the wise PAM user knows the Great Weapon style is garbage, and instead opts to use a spear and shield instead of a glaive, halberd, or pike, and takes the Dueling style. That trades their d10 damage die for a d6+2 (a wash in terms of DPR) and gives them a shield for their trouble. The +2 damage from dueling will also apply to the 1d4 butt attack from PAM, so this actually increases their DPR and their AC each by 2, at the cost of losing Reach.

The net result is that the two weapon user does 3.5 more DPR than the spear user (5 with weapon swapping cheese), but the spear user gets 2 more AC (or equal AC and only 2.5 less DPR with weapon swapping cheese to get a shield). So, yeah, all told, dual wielding is theoretically a little stronger than polearm use. But only by a few points of damage, and that’s easily made up for by the polearm user getting more consistent reaction attacks. So, yeah, pretty comparable overall.
 

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