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Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?

DanMcS said:


Why do people emphasize the good over the law aspect?

Because this board is populated almost exclusively by American and Europeans (and mostly Brits and Scandanavians at that). We are culturally predisposed to value good over law. In our countries, law exists to further good, and is made with the good in mind. People have no problem coming up with a conception of good and using it to say wether or not a law is good.

Other less individualistic and democratic cultures, such as many found in Asia and the Middle East, will be more likely to value law as supreme instead.
 

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Lela - very impressive.
You read the posts, and passed the test.

Seriously.

It's very easy for someone to assume they're right, and not look at their position ever.
It seems to me that you have the right balance for your game.

And from your post: It's Number 1.
Except its not just a small indiscretion, it's NOT an indiscretion.

You and others have convicted the PP of breaking & entering when he actually did nothing close to that.
Let's replay the scene:

Group talks to secretary, who's not letting them see NPC.
This NPC just talked to them with a Commune, so they have an In-Character reason to believe she wants to talk to them, and they are being respectful and opportunistic in showing up personally.
One of the party has an idea, asks for Paladin to use his skills to distract female NPC.
PP tries out his skills, has a good roll and roleplay.
PP has to go to bathroom.
PP comes back, and goes out of his way to stop the other player because his Paladin would not like the sneakyness.

The PP didn't even know the door was Held. (Yes, that's a big plus FOR him, not against).
He stopped the party from continuing down a path that would even hint of impropriety.
And remember one important thing: in character, it only took the Paladin seconds to stop the situation before anything happened.
You later said that Elistreae was pissed they got in.
But you said they couldn't get in. :confused:
That's confusing.

And don't be treating this like a modern-day breaking and entering- that's meta-gaming and misrepresentative of what happened.
1, they didn't break in to anything before the Pally stopped them (right?) and
2, this isn't exactly a helpess female taking a shower that they're peeking in on - this is a goddess, who not only should have been open to talking with them (the successful Commune), but has more than a door to keep people away.

While you may be right in recognizing that it was close for the PP for a minute, he quickly rectified the situation. And remember: the Pally actually didn't do anything other than talk to a secretary.
In the end, in my experience, you really should only be holding actions against the Paladins that they actually do - not every possible ramification of their actions, otherwise playing a Paladin is practically impossible.

And I'm with you, in the camp that says that Paladin players should be held above normal character's actions.
Maybe you don't know about my background on the boards, but I've been a staunch advocate of Paladin-player Responsibility, arguing that Paladins can't just kill every evil they see, and they are not off the hook as long as they simply fought 'gainst the Evil.

However, in this case, the Pally didn't let an innocent die in his pursuit for bloody revenge.
This Pally didn't kill orc babies, or surrundered captives.
This Pally simply stopped his companions from doing their proposed course of action, which was simply to get in to see a supposedly-willing goddess so she could help their captive companion.

How does that rate a revoking of status?
It doesn't.
How does that rate even a loss of powers, however temporary?
It wouldn't.

Paladins are not machines that you wind up and set in motion.
Paladins are living, breathing embodiments of the ideals of a diety, or a concept.
Most people have difficulty thinking as a Paladin, since they are tough to play because of all the 'rules'.
Many people (IMO) should not play a Paladin because of this difficulty, and because of many people's inabilities to take on another persona who sees things in a bigger light than just actions and loot.

This PP did it right.
While he didn't instantaneously object to talking to the secretary, it only took him a couple seconds to stop the thief.
No harm was done, and it sounds like fun was had by all.

To end with, I'm curious about something:
How exactly is your Paladin PrC "Very powerful" (other than the See Invis)?
 

In reading this, I get a vision of your Tyr as a cross between Lady Miggea from The Dreamthief's Daughter(Law corrupting itself into insanity, punishing people for slight infractions) and Cameron from Ferris Buellers' Day Off("Pardon my Dwarven, but if you stuck a lump of coal up Tyr's Arse, in 2 days you'd have a diamond").

However, I wouldn't punish the Paladin really at all. I have to be in agreement with reapersaurus, that you can't punish him for what he didn't do.
 
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DanMcS said:
Why do people emphasize the good over the law aspect?
Because if you don't, than you are Catch-22'ing the Paladin, and making it impossible to play one.

All that's required is the Paladin to be in a land where there is an unjust Law.
He is Lawfully 'bound' then to uphold the law..... Voila! Instant loss of paladinship, since he knowingly went against Good (for example, a law that requires the execution of a witch who actually does Good, or something like that).
 

reapersaurus said:
Because if you don't, than you are Catch-22'ing the Paladin, and making it impossible to play one.

All that's required is the Paladin to be in a land where there is an unjust Law.
He is Lawfully 'bound' then to uphold the law..... Voila! Instant loss of paladinship, since he knowingly went against Good (for example, a law that requires the execution of a witch who actually does Good, or something like that).

Wow, reapersaurus! Again you are right on the mark! :)

It drives me nuts when people treat paladins like robots or something. I always think of that old Star Trek episode where Spock destroys the robot by giving it a logic puzzle:

Spock: "Robot, Kirk only speaks the truth. He never lies!"
Kirk: "Wrong, Robot. I always lie."

Robot: "If Kirk only speaks the truth then he cannot say he is lying. But if he does lie and he just admitted to doing so, then he just spoke the truth. But he can't speak the truth because he admitted he is lying...BBBXZZZZZZTTTT DOES NOT COMPUTE!?!?!"

And the robot blows up!

Its like people treat paladins the same way:

Paladin you can never tell a lie because lies are evil! Paladin the evil necromancer is asking you where the virgin is hiding!

Paladin you told him the truth and now the girl has been sacrificed! You lose your status! Shame on you!

OR

Paladin, you saved the girl but lied to the necromancer! You broke your code and have now lost your status! Shame on you!


This isn't directed at you Lela, but whenever I read threads like this where the DM is pondering stripping the paladin of his status for stupid BS situations like this, it drives me frickin nuts!!!

Ok, just wanted to get that off my chest! :)
 

Okay, I've read the posts and now I'm off to the session.

I know what I plan to do. I'll let you know what actually happens.

See ya,
 

Course ya missed the other option:

Necro: Where is the girl?

Pal: I am not in the habit of holding conversations with evil. Prepare yourself for death. Have a nice day. :)

-Immort
 

Immort said:
Course ya missed the other option:

Necro: Where is the girl?

Pal: I am not in the habit of holding conversations with evil. Prepare yourself for death. Have a nice day. :)

-Immort

See, cause that's what I was thinking. There's always a secret option 3 in those instances. The trick is just finding it.


News coming your way all. It'll be up by tomarrow if I have to take down a drow or two to get at their internet connection (then again, I just might have too).
 

Yeah, that's why they call it a "moral dilemma", right? Face, it, such dilemma's do exist, and some DM's enjoy putting the paladin in them and seeing him squirm. :D

The trick is not to punish the Paladin for choosing Law over Good or vice versa, but to judge him on his effort in finding that "secret option 3".

In the case of a country with evil laws, there's a bunch of options available:

- refuse to enter the country
- try to reform the law
- try to prevent the law from being broken
- redefine "legitimate authority" in the paladin's code (e.g. paladin helping freedom fighters)
- the paladin may have an alternative Code that supercedes local laws (I'm all in favor of having Paladin players draft their own Code)
- personally take the blame for breaking the unjust law
.....

So Lela, what happened in your session? Did everything go over well? Did the paladin player enjoy the session? Did you get him to squirm at least a little? ;) :D
 

Conaill said:


So Lela, what happened in your session? Did everything go over well? Did the paladin player enjoy the session? Did you get him to squirm at least a little? ;) :D

Post tonight. I'm considering Story Hour form and just-say-what-happend form. Anyone have any preference?

To answer questions,

It all went well.

He said it was, quote, "Good DMing" as he stood there in deep thought afterwords.

He squirmed. It was fun. Lot's of gasps and giggles by other players. One word alone sent one of them into convulsions.

Tidbits:
  • I included patch on shirt idea. The group had to help a boy who lost his. Fire and Death was involved in this plot.
  • I asked the PP before hand what his character thoght was the most important aspect of Tyr. While every other player begged him to say Mercy he chose Justice. It was an open question and he could have chosen Rightiousness or anything else he thought Tyr might say. He knew why the question was asked and I took the answer to heart.
  • Faith is questioned. In a big way.

See ya tonight! :)
 
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