Should point buy be discouraged?

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Random stat generation depends on the type of game I want to run.

If I'm playing a grand Epic with little to no character turn over, I want point buy. I want players to think about their character, create a backstory, and play that character for a long time.

If I'm playing a game where I expect high character turn over, I want random stat generation. I want a new character to come into the game rapidly, with little backstory, and have in-game experiences shape their character.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Note how the v shaped classes just disappeared or split up. It is an indicator, that something is awry...
I guess the assumption was: if you want to be a melee ranged cleric, you paid for flexibility with slightly lower hit chances. But this didn´t carry with folks... two high stats needed... an abomination... 20 post racial absolute must. 5% here 10% there...

if you roll your stats with a system that is more or less stable/ has some safeguards (i.e. a DM who allows you to reroll until it is good enough) discussions about hitting 5% less are getting ridiculous... it is well within the standard deviation of the rolling.

So yes, point buy will lead to min maxing... always... no one says: hey, I want to be worse than I could be... You need to get the most out of your stats.

 

[Wormwood]

Point-buy *was* my preferred system, but now I'm a fan of having Standard Arrays (six or so) that the player can choose from.

And yes, my belief that faster, simpler systems are best has become a fetish. I recognize this.

 

[howandwhy99]

Point Buy discouraged? I think it depends upon the game being played.

Rolling scores is about removing players from gaming the system in specific areas. How many Hit Points do you want for your Fighter? There's an average span of 1-10 each level. Who decides on 1 for 1st level? Who decides on 10 for every one? Random generation promotes variety, while trying to be fair across the board.

AD&D had buying off point totals, usually 3:1 but some 2:1 in order to qualify for subclasses not originally qualified for under the straight rolls. This allowed greater opportunity to play non-core classes rather than rolling all over again.

One feature you might want to use when rolling ability scores is a pre-rolled stat sheet. This is simply a multiple list of the 6 ability scores generated by dice rolls. Anyone can pick a set off the list and cross it off in order to play that particular character. Plus, with a big enough list you get enough sets for even a Paladin or two on there.

 

[Umbran]

And, if so, what does that say about you, as a player?

You are making this personal. What does that say about you, as a poster?

That's a rhetorical question, to make the point. Folks, in general, please address the logic of the post, not the person of the poster. If it looks like you're trying to attribute a position to some weakness or failing on the part of the poster, you're probably walking down the Road to Rudeness.

 

[Umbran]

A bit of a revelation, on an aside.

Some folks have argued that we should get ride of attribute scores, and instead just use the attribute bonus as the attribute. This thread give me the basic reason why we shouldn't do that.

Keeping the 3-18 attributes gives us the easiest route to supporting both point-buy and random stat generation in ways proponents of both like them, so that each group has a choice.

 

[billd91]

Having a standard array and rolling are, in my opinion, both superior to point-buy, particularly when classes have a different number of stats they care about. When you mix SAD and MAD classes, point buy is probably the worst method if you're trying to balance a table of optimizers/non-optimizers.

Ideally, I'd like to see both array and rolling promoted as more preferred methods than point buy. AND I would prefer all 6 stats to be relevant to PCs rather than 4e's pick and choose method. If you want to pick your preferred stat, keep the pairings, pick the offense, the other is automatically defense.

 

[Dragonblade]

Rolling should be an option for those who want it, but point buy and static HP hands down should be the default. No question.

No randomness at ALL in character generation except as an option. I want complete control over my character when I make it. I want to play the character I want to play, not the one the dice have decided I will play.

And as far as point buy encouraging min/maxing. Ridiculous.

Two points: I have never seen more broken characters and more arguing with the DM and player dissatisfaction than in games where the DM asked PCs to roll for stats and HP. Either everyone cheats, or they don't cheat and feel ineffective and dissatisfied throughout the game often leading to arguments over rulings when the real issue is they are upset they can't keep up with Bob in the corner who rolled all 18s for stats, legitimately or otherwise.

EVERYONE min/maxes. Its human nature to take the best options you see. Even so-called "role-players" will take all the feats and abilities that help them maximize their character concept. That just may not be a combat oriented concept.

 

[Alzrius]

I used to have no problem with point-buy rules when creating ability scores. Now, having run a campaign where the PCs were all given a generous (25-point in Pathfinder) point-buy build, I'm beginning to dislike point-buys.

I believe that they do encourage min-maxing, as most of the characters my players play have started with a score of 20 in their most relevant attribute (e.g. the fighter with 20 Strength, the alchemist with 20 Intelligence), etc., via racial ability bonuses on top of point buy. I thought that might simply mean that I'd been too generous with the point-buy allocation, but my players flat-out told me that they were going to put 20 into their "prime requisite" (to use an older term) no matter what.

As I see it, the main draw of point-buy is that it lets you perfectly tailor a character around a specific idea that you already have. If you want to play a wizard, you can make the right stats for a wizard, instead of randomly rolling up a character that'd make a better fighter.

However, I do think that they lend themselves to mix-maxing, at least moreso than random generation does. I've also found myself liking several ideas I've recently read on various OSR blogs (most notably Grognardia; forgive me for not posting a link), stating that Pathfinder/D&D is a game, and that the game begins when you first sit down to make a character, not when the first adventure begins - in other words, that character "generation," rather than character "creation" - is part of the game-play, random die rolls and all.

I personally also feel that it allows for a greater bit of in-game verisimilitude to roll your stats, since in real life you can't decide how wise or how healthy you'll be (to a degree; I recognize that in real life you can change your physical and mental state somewhat via work and self-improvement, but D&D doesn't allow for that level of nuance).

So yes, I feel that point-buy should be discouraged. I'm all for it being listed as one of the alternate options for making a character...preferably several listings behind various dice-rolling methods.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't think point buy should be discouraged.

Lay out the various options. List their pros and cons.

Let the DM / group choose what they feel works best for them, without outside bias.