D&D 5E Should the Hexblade Patron be Banned?

[Immoralkickass]

I once played in a party where almost everyone had a level or two in warlock. I myself played one, but stayed single class all the way to level 13.

The easy fix is to move Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade. And also make Eldritch Blast a class feature that scales with warlock levels.

 

[Seramus]

I think Hexblade has a pretty clear narrative. It's Elric of Melniboné, Arthas Menethil, Minsc and Lilarcor. The main issue is that Pact of the Blade was already supposed to be those things. But it wasn't, not really, since Pact of the Blade has no specific narrative about cursed sentient weapons.

That said, Hex Warrior should definitely be moved to Pact of the Blade.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I once played in a party where almost everyone had a level or two in warlock. I myself played one, but stayed single class all the way to level 13.

The easy fix is to move Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade. And also make Eldritch Blast a class feature that scales with warlock levels.

Don´t allow pact magic slots to fuel smites. The multiclass rules can be read in that way. The cross usage is explicitely stated for casting spells, not more. That alone makes the dip a loss less attractive.
Hex warrior on its own is not too great. Even for a paladin, having less than 15 Str makes him slow as hell in plate armor, so the most you get out of it is a +3 bonus later on. If you consider, that hex warrior does not work with two handed weapons without pact of the blade, GWM can´t be used with it. So you need 3 levels instead of 1 anyway. Also eldritch blast is not that great without agonizing blast and the Hex spell! At that point, we are speaking about level 7 when you first notice the benefit when you get your aura. At level 8 you lost a feat, so the difference is lower again. At level 9 both can use great weapons, but the hexadin still has no GWM and also no level 3 spells. Then, finally at level 10, if you took another level of warlock, you finally have GWM, at the cost of level 3 spells and higher paladin level abilities. At level 11 the single class paladin gets improved smites. At that point, The hexadin is better served raising warlock to 5, getting another invocation and level 3 spells, where Paladin and warlock levels are balanced.

At that point, you can ask yourself, what character is stronger. I guess, if you pick smite spells (which are quite undervalued), I guess Hexadin will be about as strong as the straight up paladin, but not more. Most probably there are levels, where one is slightly ahead and levels where it is the other way round.

 

[Dragonsbane]

Hex Warrior gets to dump Strength and Dexterity and use Charisma to attack. This is a really good thing for the Hexblade, but I didn’t one level dip.

If you don't allow 1 level dips this problem along with many others go away. Personally, I have a requirement of trying to aquire 5 levels minimum in any class you take, and you must go up evenly or catch up fully.

I do give feat/ab increase at total levels, same with channel divinity and extra attacks, so the even level requirement isn't as big a deal, but long ago I got rid of min/max dips and their absurd RP reasons that would follow.

I have a hexblade in my current group, hexblade/paladin in fact lol. He is Pal1/Hex2 so next level must be pally.

 

[TwoSix]

And I know someone's about to post how their player totally has an elaborate backstory to justify their Sorpalahexadin, but I think we all kind of know the primary reason they went for that exact combo and why it keeps coming up over and over.

That's because there's nothing wrong with making a choice for mechanical reasons and then creating a narrative to justify it.

Hell, I'd argue people that do that are overall better players because they're engaging with both the mechanical layer AND narrative layer of the game. (I know I'm throwing out red meat for people to fight me. )

 

[Ancalagon]

The fifth reason is that it isn't a very good pact of the blade patch. A non-multiclasses hexblade is still probably better off with a non-pact-of-the-blade pact! Hexblade's curse works better with EB than it does with a blade, because EB scales to 4 taps.

The fact that the Tome Hexblade with EB+AG works better than a hexblade using a weapon bothers me a fair bit. If you want to go weapon-based single class hexblade (with blade pact and all that), you end up pouring all your warlock resources (spells, invocations etc) into it and you loose a lot of the versatility of the warlock class. (it annoys me so much I started a thread about it: 5E - Single class Hexblade - missing something? )

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hexblade is a fix to the Pact of the Blade - and there is a definite place for it. Pact of the blade is awesome ... in theory, but doesn't work in practice. (If I want melee from a warlock I start with Pact of the Tome and start raiding swordmage cantrips; the best combo I've found is shileighleigh, Green-flame blade, and the Celestial Pact).

If you took the "Use charisma on melee attacks" off the Hexblade and gave it to the Pact of the Blade then IMO Hexblade would be fine. Pact of the Blade then needs to get Thirsting Blade (two attacks with Pact Weapon) at level 5 for free rather than burning an invocation to be in the game you've already burned your pact to be in.

The only real problem with hexblade (other than blandness - and some bland options to build on are good) is single level dips using optional multiclassing rules. It's a little OP as an attempted fix for the Pact of the Blade not doing what it's supposed to.

 

[Iry]

Hell, I'd argue people that do that are overall better players because they're engaging with both the mechanical layer AND narrative layer of the game. (I know I'm throwing out red meat for people to fight me. )

No fight here. I can make a compelling narrative out of almost anything (probably because I DM most of the time). So what's left? Compelling mechanics! That's coincidentally a positive thing, since I'm a powergamer who love optimizing my characters for the sheer enjoyment of it. It's like building a toy out of legos, and also getting to zoom around in it with childish glee.

 

[Ancalagon]

Optimization is quite fun for many people. If my player is having fun, and not making things uncomfortable for anyone else, I'm going to let her do it. As a bonus prize, most optimization can make sense for the character.

Well..... I don't want to tell people how to have fun. And the character creation minigame can be enjoyable! But there are people more interested in character builds than actually playing the game.

It's a bit like a photographer who's more interested in cameras than photography. It happens btw. For them, the photo is just a way to show off/prove that their camera is ze awesome, instead of focusing on creating great imagery.

So if we come back to tabletop RPG, what can happen is that the player is more invested in testing/proving their awesome PC build than actually playing the game. This can be problematic and even disruptive. If the PC is optimized for one thing (say archery), they will try steer the game towards situations where they can use their archery, and be upset, or disengage, when the game is not suitable to demonstrate their cool super-archer (or whatever their build is built for). The player may feel uninterested in the story/events. They may get bored of their PC quickly - they have "proven" that their build works (or failed) and now they want to try something else.

5e offers a decent amount of character options, but far less than 3.5 or PF1. I see this as a feature, not a bug.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Still not nearly convinced, that any nerf is necessary. It looks much better on paper than it really is.