Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Elethiomel]

You're absolutely correct. Poor choice of words on my part. Duration and instantaneous have specific game mechanic connotations.

My point is that the effect of the spell is instant/instantaneous. It takes zero time for the bead to emerge, travel, and detonate.

No, it doesn't, no less than it takes an arrow zero time to travel from the bow to its target. Both take zero "game ticks", but that's not the same as zero time.

 

[Thurbane]

Welcome to 3.5, where horses are square, you can run backwards at full movement, and Instant and Instantaneous mean neither instant nor instantaneous!

 

[mvincent]

No, it doesn't, no less than it takes an arrow zero time to travel from the bow to its target. Both take zero "game ticks", but that's not the same as zero time.

Exactly. While some instantaneous spells might indeed be instantaneous, others could possibly be observed in progress... especially if their fluff text says:
"A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.)"

No matter how you slice it, the ready action requires some DM adjudication (especially in regard to what constitutes observable/knowable in regard to being a trigger). Does anyone believe this situation isn't up to the DM?

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Don't get hung up on the use of the word 'instantaneous'.

Timed Durations: Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or some other increment. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends.

Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Like so many other places in the rules, a word is used incorrectly, leading to confusion.

A flick of an ordinary whip has the tip moving twice the speed of sound, but there are no special rules for dodging one. And you could ready an action to move out of range if someone flicked it at you.

 

[tomBitonti]

Quibbles

So ... I'm having a problem with (IMO) inconsistencies in the narrative description of fireball and the game mechanic description.

A fireball has an instantaneous effect.

All spell parameters (in this case, targeting) are specified when a fireball comes into effect.

A fireball creates a bead that travels to the target and explodes.

What is the effect? The bead creation? Or the explosion? Both?

I'm seeing that "instantaneous" has two meanings; one is how long the spell effect takes to occur, the other whether or not the spell effect can be dispelled once it has taken effect. Generally, a spell that is instantaneous (meaning cannot be dispelled) is presumed to occur in an eyeblink (in an instant), but for fireball that is not the case. (Or is it the case? That is one of the disagreements in this thread.)

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Also having a problem with the meaning of how initiative is updated. If we accept that a player who performs a readied action has their initiative updated to be just before the initiative of the triggering action (where the trigger is a part of the action, not the action itself), then is the initiative update the mechanical way of patching the initiative that is merely a "best fit", or does it prescribe that the trigger action must actually occur entirely before the entire triggering action? (I'm OK with the adjustment of initiative, but I've always taken that as a best fit, not an actual statement of when things were happening.)

Hmm, A is 30' away from B and C. C readies to take a 5' step if A attacks him. A charges B and drops him, then attacks C as a benefit of the cleave feat. C takes a 5' step away, ruining the cleave attack. Is this a legal use of a readied action?

(Also: A is 30' away from B, C, and D. The same charge, cleave, and 5' step occur. Can the cleave attack be used against D or is it wasted?)

(Also: A is 30' away from B and C. There is an open hallway behind C, but D is standing in the way. D readies to take a 5' step back if A charges. C readies to take a 5' step into D's space if attacked by A. A charges B and drops him, then cleaves into C. As soon as A charged, D took a 5' step. Then C moves 5' into D's space when attacked by A. At the end of the sequence, the initiative order is adjusted to D, C, A, with B's initiative unspecified and unchanged.)

(Ok, to make this bizarre: A is 30' away from B, and C. There is a teleport trap just behind C that will take you to the square just 5' in front of A. A charges B, cleaves into C, causing C to take a 5' step onto the teleport trap, which deposits C onto a square just 5' in front of where A started his charge, where it would normally prevent the charge.)

 

[Mistwell]

Your view is wrong.



No requirement to point it exactly at the target. No requirement that pointing the wand comes before targetting the spell.

In short, steps 2 and 4 of your chart are not correct (and step 3 could occur at any time, really), leaving your conclusion without a foundation.

First, SRD is outdated now. We should be quoting from the Rules Compendium rules.

Second, regardless of "exact", you have to point it at the target, and if the target has moved 30 feet away from where you are pointing it, you are pretty obviously no longer pointing it at the target - exact or not.

As far as it coming before the spell is triggered, I think that is apparent. If you need to point the wand at the target to use the wand, then you can't even begin to deal with the spell itself until you've done that. You have to pull the trigger before you fire the bullet from the gun, much like you have to aim the wand before you cast the spell from the wand. There are four requirements to be able to TRIGGER a wand: 1) spell is on your spell list, 2) manipulate wand, 3) point wand at target, 4) speak command word. You have to meet all four requirements BEFORE the wand is triggered. If you don't (because your hands are tied, you are in an area of silence, the spell is not on your spell list, the target is no longer there, etc..) then the wand doesn't trigger.

In addition, in general it's more polite to simply disagree with reasons, rather than just telling someone they are wrong. Let's try and keep this civil.

 

[Zurai]

First, SRD is outdated now. We should be quoting from the Rules Compendium rules.

Then please do, since no one else has it. Somehow I doubt it directly contradicts the SRD in this matter.

Second, regardless of "exact", you have to point it at the target, and if the target has moved 30 feet away from where you are pointing it, you are pretty obviously no longer pointing it at the target - exact or not.

Not true in almost any case. The only case where this is true is when the target is close enough that 30 feet moves them to a different side of the wand-user.

If you need to point the wand at the target to use the wand, then you can't even begin to deal with the spell itself until you've done that.

Sure you can - if the pointing of the wand is what you do to define the target of the spell coming from the wand. The only thing the rules say about this is that you have to point the wand in the general direction of the target. It doesn't say you have to do this before the spell completion is triggered. Thus, it's a perfectly valid interpretation to say that pointing the wand is part of the process of defining the parameters which is part of completing the spell.

You have to pull the trigger before you fire the bullet from the gun, much like you have to aim the wand before you cast the spell from the wand.

No, you don't. Pulling the trigger is firing the gun. It isn't a seperate action. Thank you for supporting my case!

In addition, in general it's more polite to simply disagree with reasons, rather than just telling someone they are wrong.

When you're wrong, you're wrong. In general, it's polite to admit that rather than try to worm away from it. I didn't just say "you're wrong" and leave it at that - I provided clear, precise quotes from the rules to support my position. Something you have yet to do, I might add.

 

[Elethiomel]

No, you don't. Pulling the trigger is firing the gun. It isn't a seperate action. Thank you for supporting my case!

No. You may pull the trigger of a gun without firing it, a gun may fire without anyone pulling the trigger. Pulling the trigger is the last event in the chain of events leading to the bullet being fired where you have any input, but it is by no means the last event in that chain. I am splitting hairs here, yes... but so are you.

 

[Mistwell]

Then please do, since no one else has it. Somehow I doubt it directly contradicts the SRD in this matter.

Very well:

"To activate a staff or wand, the user must hold the item toward the target or area in a hand or similar appendage".

So, you must do it before you can activate the wand, and it no longer says "general" area. I think it's obvious that they mean "target or area" as in "if it is a target spell, then hold towards the target, if it is an area spell, the hold towards the area".

Not true in almost any case. The only case where this is true is when the target is close enough that 30 feet moves them to a different side of the wand-user.

Target generally means target square in the very least. I know of no rules that allow a target to be a cone of vision. Do you?

Sure you can - if the pointing of the wand is what you do to define the target of the spell coming from the wand. The only thing the rules say about this is that you have to point the wand in the general direction of the target.

No general direction anymore.

It doesn't say you have to do this before the spell completion is triggered.

It says you need to do it to activate the wand. If you don't do it first, you cannot activate the wand.

When you're wrong, you're wrong. In general, it's polite to admit that rather than try to worm away from it. I didn't just say "you're wrong" and leave it at that - I provided clear, precise quotes from the rules to support my position. Something you have yet to do, I might add.

I'll leave that comment alone, for others to deal with.

 

[Zurai]

You may pull the trigger of a gun without firing it, a gun may fire without anyone pulling the trigger.

Not if the gun is functioning properly. Pulling a gun's trigger, assuming it is operational and the safety is off, fires the gun. There are no other steps.

"To activate a staff or wand, the user must hold the item toward the target or area in a hand or similar appendage".

So, you must do it before you can activate the wand, and it no longer says "general" area. I think it's obvious that they mean "target or area" as in "if it is a target spell, then hold towards the target, if it is an area spell, the hold towards the area".

"towards an area" is no more precise than "towards a general area". In addition, nothing in the RC states that the pointing must come before the action of triggering the spell, rather than as part of the action of triggering the spell. I checked the store copy at my session tonight; nowhere in the entry for spell trigger magic items does it state an order of operations. Since it does not explicitly state that the pointing and command word must come before the attempt to activate the wand (rather than being a condition of activation), I think it's pretty reasonable to say that they are what triggers the spell in the wand. In other words, to trigger a wand of fireball, you say "Fry!" (or whatever) and point it at something, and the fireball launches forth. There is no step after pointing and speaking the command word; those are the activation of the item.

It says you need to do it to activate the wand. If you don't do it first, you cannot activate the wand.

Please cite where it says you must FIRST point, THEN activate. It does not appear in the text you cited above, and it does not appear in the Rules Compendium entry for Spell Trigger items.