Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Mistwell]

Said interval is not perceptible without mechanical assistance. An interval that is imperceptible is not generally going to be something that matters to a game that has 6 seconds as its smallest measured time interval. For all intents and purposes, pulling the trigger of a functional gun results in the gun immediately firing.

You interrupt the activity, and your readied action comes just before the interrupted activity. So if you see a finger moving on a trigger, you can take your readied action in reaction to that finger moving. You no longer have to be fixed to a 6 second distinct action...just any discernible activity.

 

[Elethiomel]

Said interval is not perceptible without mechanical assistance. An interval that is imperceptible is not generally going to be something that matters to a game that has 6 seconds as its smallest measured time interval. For all intents and purposes, pulling the trigger of a functional gun results in the gun immediately firing.

True. But then say you stand 500 meters away from a gunman and you ready to move when you see the flash from the gun firing. You have plenty of time to move one body width away before the bullet reaches you.

 

[Zurai]

True. But then say you stand 500 meters away from a gunman and you ready to move when you see the flash from the gun firing. You have plenty of time to move one body width away before the bullet reaches you.

Because people dodge bullets after the gun has been fired every day, right?

C'mon, you cannot possibly believe that. Bullets can travel well over 500 meters in one second, and the average human reaction time is up to a quarter second. By the time you realize the gun has been fired, the bullet is already a third or a half of the way to you. That is absolutely not "plenty of time".

 

[Mistwell]

Because people dodge bullets after the gun has been fired every day, right?

C'mon, you cannot possibly believe that. Bullets can travel well over 500 meters in one second, and the average human reaction time is up to a quarter second. By the time you realize the gun has been fired, the bullet is already a third or a half of the way to you. That is absolutely not "plenty of time".

"Bullet. The World Book Encyclopedia. New York: World Book, 1998." states "The velocity (speed) of rifle bullets varies between 600 and 5000 feet (180 and 1500 meters) per second." So it depends on the gun, and the bullet (and technically the conditions as well).

We've drifted pretty far off the topic at this point...but the answer is yes, people dodge bullets at long range based on seeing the flash of the muzzle. Not all the time, but it happens, particularly in warfare. Personally, I think it would be far easier to dodge a blast from a wand when you first see the wand-user start to wave the wand around, but your mileage may vary.

 

[Jhulae]

Because people dodge bullets after the gun has been fired every day, right?

C'mon, you cannot possibly believe that. Bullets can travel well over 500 meters in one second, and the average human reaction time is up to a quarter second. By the time you realize the gun has been fired, the bullet is already a third or a half of the way to you. That is absolutely not "plenty of time".

Well, most people aren't dodging the actual bullet after the trigger's been pulled, they're trying to not be in the direct line of fire as the gunman is firing. That being said, a *lot* of bullets get fired that don't hit their targets because the target's aren't standing still. D&D doesn't have an accurate mechanic (because of the turn based system) to reflect that. The *closest* it can come to is the Ready mechanic. As this discussion point's out, it's not an elegant way to emulate what can really happen IRL, but then again, D&D doesn't simulate Real Life.

Honestly, just look at something like the Run action. Really, it should be much harder to hit a moving target than a stationary one, yet, a high dex character who decides to run will get hit *more* by ranged attacks than if they were standing still. Completely opposite what happens in Real Life.

Since a character is giving up their action by readying a move in order to not be hit, I don't see the problem. It doesn't help take down the enemy and is a desperation maneuver. What's the problem with allowing someone to move and avoid being hit?

Oh, and perhaps it was forgotten, but... Neo dodged 4 or 5 bullets in succession from *much* less than 500 meters away.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you want the pointing to be the last step, then that means the command word or manipulating the wand (or really both) comes before the pointing. Therefore the command word or manipulation of the wand can be the trigger, and you get the same effect. One way or the other, something comes before the spell is triggered, and that something can be a trigger for a ready action that happens before the spell goes off.

I have no problem with that. That's essentially triggering off the Activate a Wand action, just like you would before Rules Compendium.

The issue with it is still that you move, and after you move, then the target or area is determined... so unless you moved out of range of the spell, you haven't dodged anything.

"Look, he's saying the command word for his Wand of Fireball - I'll move thirty feet to one side!"... and then he sets the point of origin for the spread to where you moved to.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

This reminds me of the AoO of a disarm being used to disarm the opponent debate.

Guy tries to disarm you, you disarm him before he can try to disarm you. Since he lost his weapon before he tried to disarm you, did he really try to disarm you?

I say let him use his valuable action to do nothing more than wait for a spell that may never come to have a decent chance to not automatically take damage for once. Fiction is full of stalemates like that.

 

[s-dub]

I have a point that I don't think has been voiced in this thread yet:

Since fireball allows for a reflex save, doesn't that give away that a discrete amount of time must take place between the firing of the fireball and the maximum spread fo the explosion?

For instance, there's a feat somewhere that allows you to get a bonus to your reflex save (think it's called "Dive for Cover") but you end up prone afterward. If the fireball were as fast as some claim, diving for cover would give you no advantage unless you dove ast hey were casting the spell and before they completed it.

Metagame, I imagine that this would be seen in non-stop action as the wizard beginning to cast from the wand, and as he does so the character realizes that he's the target and dives for cover. The wizard has to aim the best he can and is only able to explode the fireball near the character, which allows for the character to better survive the blast.

 

[Meeki]

I think some people are taking this far beyond what D&D is, an abstraction of reality, oh also a game.

From what I can tell with the new rules compendium definition you can ready against anything, however you need to know what is going on before you do anything. BUT in D&D everything happens in rounds, 6 seconds, however you can have an infinite number of people acting in one round. They all act in the same 6 seconds.

A readied action is you going that split second before the other guy goes. Thus your initiative is above his; however you are reacting to what you specified in your readied action. If you specified you try to jump 10 feet if he casts fireball then you would need to know he was casting fireball. The fireball casting may take 3 seconds BUT it also happens the same time you jump out of the way, the cleric heals a comrad, your ally wizard casts magic missile at hte same wizard casting the fireball. The magic missile doesn't do antyhing to interrupt the casting of the fireball later in that round BUT it still takes place in the same time frame. You move before the fireball is cast, somehow, because its an abstraction of reality, it is D&D that is how it works.

Assuming what hypersmurf has been quoting over and over, the rules seem fairly clear that the targetting of the spell happens when it is cast; after the readied action goes off. The wiz declares he's casting fireball -> you move -> he casts fire ball; fireball is instantaneous regardless of what the fluff says, once it is cast it explodes. The bead may move but it is in an instant time frame. Instant just like the description of instantaneous says in the SRD. I didnt see any new definition of it quoted on this thread from the RC. This makes spells better than melee/ranged but that should not factor into the issue at hand.

It may not make sense in reality but thats how D&D does it, you just know your opponent is going to do something, so you move, then he does it. If targetting of a spell occurs when its cast then it doesnt occur when its not cast, i.e. before the readied action. TO put it in a "reality perspective" he is casting while you move and while the fighter attacks and while the cleric heals and while the expert weaves a blanket, all in the same 6 seconds. But in game terms the spell is only cast after you move, and targetting of spells comes in during the cast.

 

[Elethiomel]

I think some people are taking this far beyond what D&D is, an abstraction of reality, oh also a game.
(...)
It may not make sense in reality but thats how D&D does it, you just know your opponent is going to do something, so you move, then he does it. If targetting of a spell occurs when its cast then it doesnt occur when its not cast, i.e. before the readied action. TO put it in a "reality perspective" he is casting while you move and while the fighter attacks and while the cleric heals and while the expert weaves a blanket, all in the same 6 seconds. But in game terms the spell is only cast after you move, and targetting of spells comes in during the cast.

Yes. Which is why the OP didn't post this in the Rules forum originally - someone moved it here. I am fairly certain that the OP knows what the rules say on the subject.

As you say, though, this is not only a game - it's also an abstraction of reality. If your DM is not willing to bend rules or make up new rules on the spot for things to make sense, then you might as well be playing a computer game, because then that's all it is. A computer game executed on human hardware. I think it is more than that, and hence I think that regardless of how I know the rules work, I think it would be cinematically appropriate to be able to dodge fireballs in the situation the OP described.

So that's how I would do it if I ran the game. If a player asked me, "Is there any way I can dodge those fireballs? The mage is many hundred feet distant, and I am the only target - can I dodge and weave to avoid it?" Then I would say, "Yes. You can ready an action to move when you see the mage sending the fireball bead toward you. Mind you, he might get wise to your tactic and then the second-guessing starts." I would do this even though I know that that is not what the rules say I can do.