Silence - Broken? & My House Rule

[Magus Coeruleus]

In my game, clerics are spontaneous casters so there's an even greater concern about Silence as the ubercounterspell. My solution was simply to make the casting time 1 round instead of 1 standard action.

 

[Ninja-to]

The only problem with this interpretation is that it kind of contradicts the text of the spell. The save is Will Negates, see text. The only Will save that is given in the text is for the direct target of the spell. No mention is made of those who are in the area.

I agree with both here, but I don't think interpretting a saving throw for creatures brought into the area contradicts the text. Even if it does *a little*, it makes a huge difference in balancing out this spell by granting a save. Neither the spellcaster or the creatures lose out in any significant way, it just gets balanced. For example, why cast it on an area with this ruling? Simple, ALL creatures must make a save in that area. Why cast it on a creature directly? Again, simple, the creature alone will take the silenced effect wherever it goes. Both are advantageous in different situations. By applying a Will save for all creatures, the BBEG that is a spellcaster can make his Will save and not have to worry about taking extra feats and sacrificing high level spell slots to out-do low level spellcasters.

 

[Thanee]

In my game, clerics are spontaneous casters so there's an even greater concern about Silence as the ubercounterspell. My solution was simply to make the casting time 1 round instead of 1 standard action.

Nice idea.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

It's an exaggeration, but take it less extreme and say put up 10th level players against an 18th level lich. If they can corner it in a small space, the lich is completely boned (no pun intended).

Lesser Globe of Invulnerability foils Silence. If the Lich is cornered in an area where he can't easily escape it would make a lot of sense to cast LGoI (or have it contingent so that it appears if silence is cast within xft of him or whatever).

3.5e made a silly change to the LGoI rules which would make it less effective as a counter ("nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast.") Using the 3.0 rules all the lich or wizard needs is a silent LGI and he's fighting again. I recommend ditching the 3.5e wording which, after all, ends up with some strange divining by the spell (how does it "know" whether a spell was cast before it or after it for instance?)

Cheers

 

[TheEvil]

I agree with both here, but I don't think interpretting a saving throw for creatures brought into the area contradicts the text. Even if it does *a little*, it makes a huge difference in balancing out this spell by granting a save. Neither the spellcaster or the creatures lose out in any significant way, it just gets balanced. For example, why cast it on an area with this ruling? Simple, ALL creatures must make a save in that area. Why cast it on a creature directly? Again, simple, the creature alone will take the silenced effect wherever it goes. Both are advantageous in different situations. By applying a Will save for all creatures, the BBEG that is a spellcaster can make his Will save and not have to worry about taking extra feats and sacrificing high level spell slots to out-do low level spellcasters.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you on the first part, but it does open up a number of questions that now need answering. By the book, if you cast Silence on an unwilling creature and they make their save, the spell fails. Allowing anyone in the area of effect to make saving throws adds considerable confusion. If you are interested, I would pose the following situations:

An opponent is targetted with Silence and makes his save, what happens to the spell?

An opponent is within the area of a Silence spell, but not targetted, and makes his save, what happens to the spell?

An opponent enters the area of a Silence spell, makes his save, what happens to the spell?

A creature with Silence centered on them moves to an opponent, who makes his save, what happens to the spell?

As I understand the rules, in the first example, the spell fails, but in the others, the opponent is silenced until they move beyond the effect. How would you judge the spell to be effected? Does the spell fail the moment ANYONE in it makes a save? Do they simply have their own 'bubble of sound'? How are sonic and language depent spells effected? Would a singing harpy entering the silence negate it if they make their save, forcing the PCs to roll theirs?

 

[Liquidsabre]

Nice idea.

Bye
Thanee

Oooo I agree, good one that!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Not much of an exaggeration. 2 weeks ago, my party or 3rd level adventurers took down an evil Clr 7/Entropomancer 7 through clever use of silence, grease, and tanglefoot bags. Fortunately, it took the DM a couple rounds to realize that his Shard of Entropy didn't need any components or we'd have been hosed.

It's an exaggeration, but take it less extreme and say put up 10th level players against an 18th level lich. If they can corner it in a small space, the lich is completely boned (no pun intended). Ok, he can take feats etc to cast Silent spells, but the cleric is using up a 2nd level spell while the lich is wasting a far higher level spell slot, just to get out the way. Of course, the cleric can just cast silence again until the Lich has used up many of his higher level spell slots just to avoid the area.

 

[boredgremlin]

I know but I was thinking of the situation where you have a spellcaster, say, on a raised platform surrounded by a chasm, or even just a small room with only one exit. It just seems too easy to be able to take out high level spellcasters with this spell if their mobility is limited.

Its an illusion spell so giving its victims a saving throw is fair. Not really sure how they call it an illusion. Lol i guess you just believe you cant hear anything. But anyway in 2nd edition i think it had saving throws so its not like it hasnt been done before. Alternatively you could have any spell that protects you from illusions protect from silence too.

 

[Ninja-to]

Its an illusion spell so giving its victims a saving throw is fair. Not really sure how they call it an illusion. Lol i guess you just believe you cant hear anything. But anyway in 2nd edition i think it had saving throws so its not like it hasnt been done before. Alternatively you could have any spell that protects you from illusions protect from silence too.

That's very interesting. I hadn't noticed that! Hmm...

 

[Ninja-to]

I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you on the first part, but it does open up a number of questions that now need answering. By the book, if you cast Silence on an unwilling creature and they make their save, the spell fails. Allowing anyone in the area of effect to make saving throws adds considerable confusion. If you are interested, I would pose the following situations:

An opponent is targetted with Silence and makes his save, what happens to the spell?

An opponent is within the area of a Silence spell, but not targetted, and makes his save, what happens to the spell?

An opponent enters the area of a Silence spell, makes his save, what happens to the spell?

A creature with Silence centered on them moves to an opponent, who makes his save, what happens to the spell?


As I understand the rules, in the first example, the spell fails, but in the others, the opponent is silenced until they move beyond the effect. How would you judge the spell to be effected? Does the spell fail the moment ANYONE in it makes a save? Do they simply have their own 'bubble of sound'? How are sonic and language depent spells effected? Would a singing harpy entering the silence negate it if they make their save, forcing the PCs to roll theirs?

I would rule that the only result from creatures making their save is that they aren't affected by the spell, but everything else is. The spell is not dispelled when cast on an area and one creature makes it save. It just means that creature alone is unaffected.