Sneak Attack: A Little Too Powerful?

[Jeremy]

And what about when the fighter's superior base attack and to hit modifiers allow him to power attack for more damage?

Or when he gets a feat that lets him double his strength modifier when charging?

Or his base attack bonus grants him more attacks per round?

Or when the rogue and his d6 hit points gets clocked 3 times for 25+ damage each and the fighter is still going..

What about when the opponent is flanked? Or has concealment? Or is undead? Or is an elemental? Or is anything non-humanoid?

The point is, the few times the rogue is in position, hits, and rolls well on his sneak attack are out weighed by the fact that the fighter is in position every round of every combat. He is still standing when the rogue has to flee, he is doing damage more often and always consistantly.

Therein lies the advantage. The rogue will occasionally have his moment to shine--like a flat-footed cyclops catching 4 arrows (1 from rapid shot, one from haste) all with sneak attack damage and falls in the first round because he lost init... But on average, the fighter's total damage output over his career will be superior.

Especially when armor of fortification and spells like blur or displacement or invisibility start coming into play. And if invisibility or displacement never come into play, the baddies are just asking for the rogue to get into position.

Reach, non-humanoid opponents, and a hundred other factors balance sneak attack. It allows the rogue a viable combat option that actually comes up occasionally and is actually impressive when it does. Don't take that away when there are so many other instances when the rogue who has low hp to begin with, lower hp because he's always expected to be up front scouting (and sometimes triggering) traps, and only a few attacks per round gets floored in a round or has to stand around just doing 1d6+2 damage while the fighter is doing 2d6+12 3 times a round.

In 2e, backstab was a multiplier, but only worked with certain weapons and only once in a very long while. The rest of the time the rogue was relegated to the back, plinking away. Now the rogue is a viable option, but in no way does he overshadow the fighter. Very well balanced ability, applicable, fun, limited, powerful, and well implemented mechanically.

 

[Azlan]

So can the Fighter. You gave him a 14 dex, yet his armor has a max dex of +1. You also have the fighter using a greatsword, when a bastard sword and a shield is more common. This comparison is not realistic and highly biased.

Bah. The things you point out won't make that much of a difference...

Fighter 5th. Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14. AC 22 (+1 plate armor & large shield). HPs: 40. +1 Bastardsword (Specialized), Attack Bonus +11, Damage: d10+7.

Rogue 5th. Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12. AC 19 (+1 chain shirt & MW buckler). HPs: 23. +1 Rapier (w/ Weapon Finesse), Attack Bonus: +8, Damage: d6+2 (+3d6 w/ Sneak Attack).

Okay, so now the fighter's attack bonus and AC are one step better. But his damage worsens from 8-19 to 8-17. (His Strength got higher, but now he's using a weapon with a lower damage die, one-handed.)

 

[Henrix]

If your a lone monster surrounded by a group of player characters

Poor, stupid monster. I feel sad for him

There's not much to do when a body* is that stupid. Euthanasia is perhaps the best, after all.






* Or soon-to-be.

 

[InvaderSquoosh]

If that Ranger were a Paladin, he could refuse to flank and let such a dishonorable fighting technique rule the day!

I played my last Paladin that way and boy did the party rogues hate me

 

[Jeremy]

Fighter 5th. Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14. AC 22 (+1 plate armor & large shield). HPs: 40. +1 Bastardsword (Specialized), Attack Bonus +11, Damage: d10+7.

Actually a shield increases the AC by 2.

And what if the fighter5 had Str 18, Dex 12, and Con 14 and was riding a horse? 6 feats = mounted combat, ride by, spirited charge, power attack, power lunge, and any other feat, say focus in a backup weapon or in the lance...

Now he's got the same AC (23), but is using a lance instead of a sword. And after the +2 from charging and the +1 for higher ground, his attack bonus is 3+5+4=+12, he can power attack 2 of that for an even +10 to hit doing 1d8+2+8 for 1d8+10 x3, for a range of 33-54 per hit. Ride by, rinse, repeat.

Rogues have power when used correctly, so do fighters.

 

[Crothian]

If your a lone monster surrounded by a group of player characters (consisting of, say, a fighter, a ranger, a rogue, and a wizard), what ingenious and masterful tactics are you going to use to keep yourself from being flanked? Since 3E D&D doesn't use facing rules, turning to face the rogue doesn't negate his sneak attack.

Simple, back against a wall or other obsticle. Make a full attack action at the rgoue. He won't havea great AC or HP. Should be easy to take out. Two simple solutions that don't depend on the creature. Specific creatures will have even better ways to do this. Of course you are assuming lone monster, and that's not the most common encounter.

 

[Azlan]

Actually a shield increases the AC by 2.

Yes, but the fighter's Dex was dropped from 14 to 12, in order to raise his Str to 18.

And what if the fighter5 had Str 18, Dex 12, and Con 14 and was riding a horse? 6 feats = mounted combat, ride by, spirited charge, power attack, power lunge, and any other feat, say focus in a backup weapon or in the lance...

Yeah. Right. How often do you see a fighter and his warhorse in the middle of a dungeon?! I'm talking about a group of player characters in a typical D&D adventure, not on a medieval battlefield.

 

[Crothian]

Bah. The things you point out won't make that much of a difference...

Fighter 5th. Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14. AC 22 (+1 plate armor & large shield). HPs: 40. +1 Bastardsword (Specialized), Attack Bonus +11, Damage: d10+7.

Rogue 5th. Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12. AC 19 (+1 chain shirt & MW buckler). HPs: 23. +1 Rapier (w/ Weapon Finesse), Attack Bonus: +8, Damage: d6+2 (+3d6 w/ Sneak Attack).

So, the fighter gets hit 15% less thern the rogue and hits 15% more (not exactly those, but close enough). Also the fighter has almost twice as manty HP so he can stay in combat longer being hit less and being able to take more hits. He will also hit more and do more damage. Rogues don't get sneak attacks all the time.

 

[James McMurray]

Also, try your ranger using an 18 Dex, and weapon finesse on dual wielded Short Swords.

Or what about Longsword and a shield of Bashing (with the feat that lets him attack and still get the AC bonus)?

Sure, rangers are way too front-loaded, but if you set out to prove them less powerful than the rogue, you will succeed.

Finally, saying that Fighters will take the brunt of the damage is kind of silly. If someone hits me with a sneak attack, he becomes my new target.

 

[Henrix]

If someone hits me with a sneak attack, he becomes my new target.

Yup, especially since he's probably the easiest to take out anyway. Easier to hit, fewer hit points - not to mention softer and easier on your teeth!