sneak attack with ranged attack?

[Hawk764]

if my rogue is in melee and is flanking a flankable say troll, and wants to use his wand of acid splash to do sneak attack damage to the troll, can he?

 

[RigaMortus]

You can only flank with a weapon you can threaten with. You do not threaten with ranged weapons (or wands), so therefore you can not flank with them.

 

[Ibram]

unless you have a feat you cannot flank at a range.

you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon if your target is flatfooted... but you have to be within 30ft and the first range increment (with your weapon) to do it.

 

[Squire James]

Common sense would dictate that one would have to threaten a foe to flank him.

However, the Rules-As-Written do not favor common sense in this case, and allows a flanking bonus as long as the ally across the way threatens the foe. In other words, your rogue DOES get a flanking bonus (and thus a Sneak attack), while the ally across the way DOES NOT (because the rogue doesn't threaten the foe).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Let me go back to the original poster's question.

We have a warrior who is standing next to a troll, hacking at it with his longsword.

Standing directly across the troll from the warrior is a rogue, poking at it with his no-doubt-finessed rapier.

The troll is, currently, flanked, and the rogue is scoring sneak attacks each round.

In round 6, he pulls his wand of acid splash from his belt with his "off hand", points it at the troll, says a magic word and ....

Sneak attack or no?

I'd say it has to be, ignoring Squire James's reasoning, because the rogue - even though he isn't attacking with his rapier this round - still threatens with it.

Moreover, he *must* still threaten with it because, otherwise, you get into all kinds of logical problems in other situations (a thrown dagger and quickdrawn sword, for instance).

So, good on you, Hawk, for finding an interesting application of the rules.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

You can only flank with a weapon you can threaten with. You do not threaten with ranged weapons (or wands), so therefore you can not flank with them.

Listen to this man, for his words are true.

AR

 

[atom crash]

To expand on Patryn's example above, it seems reasonable to me that the rogue is considered flanking with the wand regardless of whether he has another weapon ready, if he is capable of making a melee attack into an adjacent square with the wand.

A wand of fireball, however, is a different matter. Or a wand of bull strength, or any other spell that doesn't do damage.

In this specific case, acid splash requires a ranged touch attack so the rogue would need a melee weapon handy.

But if that's a wand of inflict light wounds, the rogue can make a melee touch attack with it, so he threatens with it.

Activating a wand is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, so just as in the case of a held touch spell the rules treat is as a weapon. He's armed, so he can flank with it.

Edited for clarification.

 

[glass]

My understanding is; if someone is standing the opposite side of a foe from you and threatens, you get the bonus. If your threaten, he gets the bonus. You do not both have to threaten.

I'd have to check the precise wording to be sure, but my take at the moment is that the rogue can sneak attack with the wand.

EDIT: The point I was trying to make was that the rogue in question doesn't need a rapier or ILW spell to GET the flanking bonus, but he does need one to GIVE a flanking bonus to his buddy.

glass.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

IMO, you don't threaten with a wand of ILW (for example)

You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action.

You need a standard action to activate and use the wand. You cannot activate the wand when it is not your turn. Ergo, you cannot make a melee attack with your wand when it is not your action.

If your hand were enchanted with a chill touch spell, then, yes, you could threaten, since you can make numerous attacks with your hand.

Edit: cf. Flanking: If the fighter and the rogue are flanking an opponent, the rogue could sneak attack with an ILW wand, but not with an Acid Splash wand, because the former is a melee touch attack while the latter is a ranged touch attack. The Fighter would NOT get a flanking bonus, since the rogue would not be threatening when it would be the fighter's time to attack. Furthermore, the opponent would get an AoO against the rogue if said rogue used the Acid Splash wand in his threatened space (since the Acid Splash attack is a ranged one).

AR

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Edit: cf. Flanking: If the fighter and the rogue are flanking an opponent, the rogue could sneak attack with an ILW wand, but not with an Acid Splash wand, because the former is a melee touch attack while the latter is a ranged touch attack.

I understand where you're coming from; it hinges upon this text:

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

As everyone can now see, you only receive a flanking bonus to your attack roll when making a melee attack.

Unfortunately, that doesn't completely answer the questions, since:

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

The condition of being flanked - or of flanking - is never really defined.

Is a rogue flanking a target:

A. when any melee attack made by the rogue against a target would be given the +2 flanking bonus?

B. only when making a melee attack that is given the +2 flanking bonus?

C. some other time?

The rules seem to assume A - you get and give the flanking bonus on any AoOs, and regardless of whether or not you've even attacked the target during that or any round, or even made a melee or ranged attack at all against anyone.

For instance, the warrior in the above example still provides the flanking bonus to the rogue if he, on his turn, takes the Full Attack action to throw, quickdraw, throw, quickdraw, throw, etc., a series of daggers with his non-sword hand at the goblins running past him.

He likewise still provides the flanking bonus to the rogue if he, on his turn, uses a move-equivalent action to draw a potion, and a standard action to drink it, making no attacks at all.

At best, the rules definitively support the conclusion that the rogue, when making his ranged touch attack against the troll standing before him, does not get a +2 flanking bonus on his attack roll, since getting that bonus requires a melee attack (see above).

Whether or not this means that the rogue is no longer flanking his opponent, and therefore eligible for Sneak Attack damage, is less clear.

The Fighter would NOT get a flanking bonus, since the rogue would not be threatening when it would be the fighter's time to attack.

Except, of course, that the rogue is smart and is holding the wand in one hand, with his rapier in the other.

Furthermore, the opponent would get an AoO against the rogue if said rogue used the Acid Splash wand in his threatened space (since the Acid Splash attack is a ranged one).

Not true. The rogue is not making a "ranged attack" - which is a specific subset of the standard Attack action.

Rather, he is using Activate Magic Item standard action - and, specifically, the Activate Spell Trigger Item - which, also specifically, does not provoke an AoO. The fact that it involves a ranged attack roll is incidental.