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D&D 5E So, 5e OGL

Mythmere1

First Post
2) some great companies have been licenced to work with wotc

Here's the summary of a long post that I'll mirror on my blog:
If D&D doesn't allow third party publishing, it forces the 3rd party publishers to compete with D&D, using the Pathfinder system. Or whatever, but mainly Pathfinder. They have the choice of recruiting a mass of competitive allies, or throwing all that capital and creativity onto Paizo's side of the scale. It's an existential decision. Not this year certainly, but as early as next year I think the absence or presence of third party publishers will begin determining the ultimate survival of D&D in the face of Pathfinder.

So far, this appears to be more like "hired by" to "work for." Whether it's public relations to call it a "license," or whether something titled "license" was put in there with the operative legal documents, what WotC has done with Kobold Press and presumably again with Sasquatch, isn't what I'd call a license in terms of putting the benefits of third-party creativity into the system.

I don't fault them for that; they had to have an adventure to go out with the core books, and they no doubt had (and probably still have) internal wars over exactly the same question here on this thread -- is a real license a good idea for WotC or is it a bad one, and even if it's a good one then some poor lawyer has to write the thing with multiple people telling him/her how to word it. (I'm a lawyer, my heart bleeds for that person)

But the arrangement with Kobold is more like hiring a production company at best.
(1) Surely no one thinks Kobold wasn't given parameters for content (betcha it had to have at least one dragon). Some content ratings, though, can definitely still be "like a license," see Paizo's.
(2) Surely no one thinks Wolfgang Bauer was required to invest his own money at a measurable scale relative to the project for an investor's share? That's in the nature of a license.
(3) Surely no one thinks that there wasn't a set range for the page count.

See, here's the thing. Licenses can take many forms, and have many layers of complexity, including all manner of restrictions, but AT HEART a license is something that allows a third party to be an independent business using the licensed material. Not necessarily a successful one, not necessarily one that supports a family, but one where the significant decisions, most of the risk, and most of the gain, are undertaken by the licensee. Here, WotC is undertaking all the risk, and capturing most of the upside. That's not a license agreement, it's hiring a group of excellent authors who have a company. Which, again, was a good call. I don't fault that decision for even a moment in terms of where WotC stood on its production schedule, its work load and personnel coverage, the evolving state of the rules, and the legal/marketing interface on the question of how open to be with the rules. I would have done the same thing at that point in time. Remember, it takes a LONG time to produce a book like Tyranny of Dragons, and you have to manage lots of moving pieces. WotC effectively hired Kobold to handle as many of those moving pieces as possible within the context of a flagship product. Wolfgang Bauer was a brilliant choice for it. But that's (a) not really a license in any meaningful sense of the word, and (b) not something that grants the benefits of a robust licensing system -- or the downside either, and some downside does exist.

The question of true licensing is this: WotC is trying to catch up with a well-funded, popular competitor that has a well-established brand name, in almost exactly the same competitive space. WotC has a more widely recognized brand name, but it's an older brand name with fewer loyal, die-hard customers than Paizo has. The different aspects of those brand names are important to the way the competition is going to roll out. WotC is starting from behind, but has to work slightly less hard per new customer, and slightly less hard to shift a customer from the Paizo circle in the Venn diagram to the WotC circle. On the other hand, Paizo has WotC under siege. All Paizo has to do is hold onto enough customers that WotC doesn't meet the expectations of the Magic the Gathering return on investment for long enough that WotC decides not to keep funding new books for D&D. Paizo can last much longer because of that existing base of loyal customers. WotC can generate phenomenal return on investment with the core books, but has to sustain a cash flow stream. Paizo already has, and will undoubtedly retain, enough cash flow to continue publishing Pathfinder under their existing model. D&D will, without question, grab enough fans to stay in business if those fans keep playing and buy more books. But they have to hold that ground.

That's a summary of the competitive space, and I think it's accurate. D&D probably got the one, big, expenditure authorization. Core books. After that, have production houses produce smaller books that will also sell to players (campaigns, adventurer sourcebooks. Look at the production schedule and whether full-time WotC employees are doing the writing: I rest my case).

Where do third party publishers fit in here? It all has to do with the popularity of one system or the other. D&D is fighting to survive in that competitive space long enough to gain customer loyalty for those player-targeted books (and the ability to license pinball machines, shirts, computer games, movies, happy-meal toys, etc). They have to stay in the game.

You can't. Cannot. Stay in the game against Paizo with limited funding and a single WotC-supervised line of products. Not even if you are casting a wide net on your product definition such as "Forgotten Realms," or "Greyhawk," or "Spelljammer." That's been tried. The older ones of us remember how successful D&D can be if it runs many campaigns, player-targeted books, and attempt to control outside publishing. That was late-TSR business planning, and it ran TSR out of business. It didn't kill the brand name, but that's because there was no established competitor of any size.

In this case, there's Paizo. Phenomenal customer service, fanatic customer loyalty, stable game system rules (I think WotC's D&D rules are pretty stable and spiffy, too, but I'm profiling Paizo, not comparing), well funded, and with owners that won't cancel the game over a couple of bad fiscal quarters in a row.

One of the ways Paizo got so powerful as a competitor? Third parties publishing "alternate visions" of Pathfinder. Publishing little things to spice up a non-standard game. Publishing robot-power-pirate-dinosaur adventures for the 25 gaming groups that needed exactly that module on exactly that release date. All those people who might have drifted to D&D or Savage Worlds, or Swords & Wizardry, or gone back to First Edition D&D ... they stayed with Pathfinder because of the 3d party publishers. And then maybe a week, maybe a month, maybe six months later, they bought another Pathfinder book from Paizo. Or they bought another robot-power-pirate-dinosaur adventure in the Paizo store, giving Paizo a percentage.

WotC benefits LESS from third party publishers, because they don't (and won't) have a store like Paizo does, where they get cash flow direct from the third party publishers. Let me tell you, Paizo got a measurable chunk of change by selling Frog God Games' Rappan Athuk. WotC wouldn't get that cash flow stream. But they prevent this: "Hey, let's play Rappan Athuk. Oh, it's for Pathfinder not D&D. Oh well, drag out the Pathfinder books again, we'll play D&D again later, maybe." Because remember, D&D needs that cash flow stream now, not later. They need: "Hey, let's play Rappan Athuk. There's a 5th edition version [not yet, fans, this is an example]. But I need a DM screen. No problem, I'll get one this afternoon over at the game store where there are other WotC products next to it on the shelf."

There's no question that in the above example, some WotC product (say, Tyranny of Dragons) got left on the shelf, and all WotC sold was a DM screen (and maybe a related impulse buy). But the relevant comparison ISN'T less vs more, which many posters here seem to think. The relevant comparison is an existential one: it's selling NOTHING vs selling something. Selling "something" to those who would otherwise play the competing game because of third party publishers keeps the lights on at D&D headquarters.

D&D alone can muster up a nice, robust product line that will sell to people who like the common denominator. Mike has done a good job of hitting a broad common denominator. He's in there swinging. He built an awesome battleship out of what looked like a sunken wreck.

The competing product line, though, is a freaking juggernaut. Paizo is at the center like an aircraft carrier, delivering wave after wave of common denominator product. What's different is the vast armada of third party publishers meeting every need of the Pathfinder player, from alternate minis, to little status tokens, to specialized adventures, to variant character classes, to whatever imaginable whim that player might have. If they play Pathfinder. Instead of D&D.

So, again, the summary of this small book (which I'll also post as a blog) is this:

Without those 3rd party publishers, WotC has no way to capture the marginal customer. The people who simply can't live with the concept of a world without [your favorite Pathfinder 3pp product]." Single product line relying on multiple official campaigns and policing 3pp production didn't fly in 1998. And now, in 2014, Paizo is out there. Paizo is lean, mean, and popular. If D&D wants to beat the empire, it needs a plucky rebel alliance. They need to start assembling that rebel alliance, fast. And that doesn't mean hiring companies to produce company-approved material using WotC capital and Hasbro's corporate bonds. That's the TSR model circa 1998. I'm assuming that this is just because the rest of the WotC business model hasn't rolled out yet. But the clock is ticking. OGL-based material won't continue to flow from 3rd party publishers without a license to use the copyrighted terms in the rules (not necessarily the trademark, and not an SRD). Without at least that level of open license, D&D won't have the staying power, and Paizo just has to wait. The third party publishers will do all the competing that Paizo needs done.

If D&D doesn't allow third party publishing, it forces the 3rd party publishers to compete with D&D, using the Pathfinder system. Or whatever, but mainly Pathfinder. They have the choice of recruiting a mass of competitive allies, or throwing all that capital and creativity onto Paizo's side of the scale. It's an existential decision. Not this year certainly, but as early as next year I think the absence or presence of third party publishers will begin determining the ultimate survival of D&D in the face of Pathfinder.
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Here's the summary of a long post [WALL OF TEXT CUT]

Can we please get a summary of the summary? Or, skipping a step, can we get a summary of the summary of the summary? Something with no more than one to three paragraphs, each themselves composed of no more than three sentences? Cause seriously, if that was a summary, I don't have time to read the novel it's based on :)
 


Sacrosanct

Legend
**snip**.

There are two things I think I disagree on a bit here.

First is that you're painting all of Pathfinder's players as a fanatically loyal base. You mentioned it a few times. While I think there are fans of PF who are that way (every edition has them), I also think a lot of people play PF because it "feels" like D&D and 4e....not so much. So they stuck with it.

Secondly is that I disagree that 3PP is forced to use PF for their material. Heck, your own signature seems to show that's not the case. Sure, PF is the biggest, but 3PPs certainly aren't "forced" to use that system. I sure as heck don't.
 

Yiur limited idea of a licence not withstanding there is no reason that wotc cant use limited licences for 5e and sudo just fine


Infact i dare say piazo has never compeated with a fully functional wotc excet as #2
 

Remathilis

Legend
Can we please get a summary of the summary? Or, skipping a step, can we get a summary of the summary of the summary? Something with no more than one to three paragraphs, each themselves composed of no more than three sentences? Cause seriously, if that was a summary, I don't have time to read the novel it's based on :)

[video=youtube;GZYhDMCOyww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZYhDMCOyww[/video]
 

Mercurius

Legend
So, again, the summary of this small book (which I'll also post as a blog) is this:

OK, I read the fruits of your labor and it is a good post. You speak with a degree of certainty that I personally don't feel comfortable with, as if there are clear answers to all of this - why Pathfinder is succeedly, what WotC needs to do to compete, etc. I mean, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just not as certain as you are that you are right.

For instance, I think you over-emphasize the importance of 3PP to Paizo. I think they are important, but the main reason Pathfinder has been such a success is because of the positive qualities you mention about Paizo - they just seem to "get" how to run an RPG business. And yes, their success was fueled by the failure of 4E to really thrive.

Now maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like with both Kobold and Sasquatch, WotC didn't as much license out products to those companies--otherwise we'd see Kobold's logo on the spines of Tyranny of Dragons, and it isn't (at least not that I remember; it is upstairs and I'm too lazy to go check)--as they did hire the creative teams of those companies as freelancers. This seems mutually beneficial in that it doesn't occupy WotC's small team (at least beyond writing the story bible), and it also gives Kobold some nice advertising and further street cred.

Going forward, I imagine that WotC--if they're smart--will take a diversified approach. Not back to the 90s or even the early 00s, but a mixture of both and some other approaches we haven't thought of. How about:

- Hire the creative teams of well-established companies to make products for you (e.g. the Kobold and Sasquatch books)
- Offer a limited Open Gaming License, one that doesn't require an extortionist fee but does have some kind of criteria to be applicable for (so as not to deluge the market with crap like in the 2000-03 period)
- License out major campaign worlds for other, dedicated folks to work on
- Create a steady, but slower flow of high quality product in house
- Revive Dragon to be a community hub--staying in contact with the fan-base--both for new content but also to advertise all of the licensed and 3PP stuff

Now wait a minute, all of that is sounding a bit like Paizo. But it works! Why not learn from their success?

Another major aspect of Pathfinder's success, that I'm worried WotC doesn't get, is Golarion. Traditionally setting material isn't a big cash cow, at least beyond the first book, but I think the influence of Golarion is far broader than merely profit margins on setting books. It is the glue that brings the whole Pathfinder enterprise together - the context of the adventure paths, that makes them feel like living stories, and of course the home world for all of the iconic characters and other Pathfinder tropes that distinguish it from being merely "D&D 3.5 Revised." 4E lacked this kind of cohesive, setting identity. They teased with it a bit with Nentir Vale, Nerath, and the canonical backstory found in various books. But they never brought it together, so 4E always felt a bit in limbo.

So that would be my summary, my advice:

  1. Take a diversified approach to licensing, 3PP, and product
  2. Bring back Dragon, in some form or another, to be a community hub
  3. Center your in-house work on a (new?) campaign setting that glues it all together
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
There are two answers

1) some dareing third parties are risking useing the 3.5 ogl

Daring indeed. I'm not a lawyer, so obviously my interpretation is probably not 100% correct. But what I am certain about is that WoTC had lawyers look at the OGL, and I'm equally certain that they allowed themselves protections, rather than "hey everyone, you can copy anything you want!" I've heard some people say that you can replicate 5e pretty much exactly using the OGL. Or that you don't even need the OGL because of copyright laws (you can't copyright mechanics for instance). I disagree because it doesn't pass the sniff test, even before I actually look at the OGL. What I mean by this is, "If you can replicate any game, then why would an OGL even be necessary? Why weren't there companies coming out with clones long before the OGL came about?" I also don't think you can use the OGL to replicate 5e because many of the terms and rules presentation are unique to 5e and aren't part of the OGL to begin with. But let's look at the OGL, bolded parts by me:

THIS LICENSE IS APPROVED FOR GENERAL USE. PERMISSION TO DISTRIBUTE THIS LICENSE IS MADE BY WIZARDS OF THE COAST!

OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0a

The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.

1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.

2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.

3.Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License.

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

5.Representation of Authority to Contribute: If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License.

6.Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.

7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.

8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.

9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.

10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.

11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so.

12 Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.

13 Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.

14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.

15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.


Bullet point #8 is the one I most see 3PP not using. I don't think I've ever actually seen #8 in any product, but I admit I have mostly only seen Indie work. Heck, I was initially guilty of that myself on the early stuff I did.

But based on the other bolded parts, it seems clear to me that a lot of people putting out 5e compatible stuff are in violation of the OGL. Companies like Kobold Press I assume have additional agreements as noted in the OGL above, so they're OK. But Bob at Bob's RPGs does not have the legal right to put out 5e compatible material using the same presentation (both terms for rules and appearance) that 5e uses, which I've seem some people are doing. It seems clear to me (again, my interpretation from the OGL) that only things specified by the contributors (WoTC in this case) can be used, and WoTC has not given any indication that 5e terms (like the use of advantage/disadvantage to explain a particular rule) have been included as part of the OGL. How could they of? They didn't exist when the OGL came out.

The real kicker that makes me laugh is when people put, "No copyright infringement intended" as if that's some sort of protection against them infringing on someone's copyright. Or the response of, 'If it makes you uncomfortable buying my product, then don't buy it." Um, whether or not I feel personally comfortable isn't the point. The point is you're infringing on someone else's copyright.

So yeah, I guess you could say my position is that we should wait before putting out any 3PP or you risk a C&D or being sued. Not saying that's gonna happen because WoTC doesn't seem to have the history of suing indie guys when most indie guys aren't properly following the above OGL anyway.
 

Nellisir

Hero
I've heard some people say that you can replicate 5e pretty much exactly using the OGL. Or that you don't even need the OGL because of copyright laws (you can't copyright mechanics for instance). I disagree because it doesn't pass the sniff test, even before I actually look at the OGL. What I mean by this is, "If you can replicate any game, then why would an OGL even be necessary?
To indicate compatibility; to reduce the cost of entry (no/minimal lawyers); to establish a baseline vocabulary.

Why weren't there companies coming out with clones long before the OGL came about?"
Well, there were some, but the biggest thing the OGL did was increase awareness of copyright law among publishers and wannabe publishers. Why didn't anyone invent the wheel before someone invented the wheel? Also (and this is even bigger...) internet. Without the internet, you needed a much larger budget to reach a much smaller audience. The vast vast majority of 3PP publishers (95%+?) are electronic. That possibility simply wasn't there until very late 1990's/early 2000s.

I also don't think you can use the OGL to replicate 5e because many of the terms and rules presentation are unique to 5e and aren't part of the OGL to begin with.
That's a problem, but I doubt there are as many unique terms as you imply. You can also find precedent for many of them in existing products in the OGC sphere.

Bullet point #8 is the one I most see 3PP not using. I don't think I've ever actually seen #8 in any product, but I admit I have mostly only seen Indie work. Heck, I was initially guilty of that myself on the early stuff I did.
I agree many publishers have problems with this, but many get it right. If you've never seen #8, then you can't have seen very many products. "All text except Product Identity" is pretty clear, for instance, if Product Identity is specified.

Companies like Kobold Press I assume have additional agreements as noted in the OGL above, so they're OK.
I don't think Tyranny of Dragons is OGL at all, so the OGL is totally irrelevant. They appear to be doing freelance work, not licensed work - in other words, they're getting paid, not paying.

But Bob at Bob's RPGs does not have the legal right to put out 5e compatible material using the same presentation (both terms for rules and appearance) that 5e uses, which I've seem some people are doing.
I'll agree about presentation, although where that line is drawn is indistinct.

It seems clear to me (again, my interpretation from the OGL) that only things specified by the contributors (WoTC in this case) can be used
I think this is where some of your analysis breaks down. WotC isn't a Contributor to the OGL as defined by the license regarding 5e, because 5e products were not released under the OGL. They aren't Product Identity, closed content, or anything. Publishers are operating under normal copyright law, not OGL licensing, regarding 5e.

{quote]WoTC has not given any indication that 5e terms (like the use of advantage/disadvantage to explain a particular rule) have been included as part of the OGL. How could they of? They didn't exist when the OGL came out.[/quote]
Well, they could add it. That's easy.

The real kicker that makes me laugh is when people put, "No copyright infringement intended" as if that's some sort of protection against them infringing on someone's copyright. Or the response of, 'If it makes you uncomfortable buying my product, then don't buy it." Um, whether or not I feel personally comfortable isn't the point. The point is you're infringing on someone else's copyright.
This I agree with. The one that gets me is "I'm giving it away for free, so it's OK." Well, no. If you steal my money and then give it away, that doesn't make you not a thief.
 

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