So..tell me about Eberron

[FalcWP]

That's one thing I particularly dislike. The PCs start as larger-than-life figures heading for godhood. If you like that sort of play, it's great, but if you prefer your characters to be more Indiana Jones than X-Men, the setting doesn't support it so much.

See, I don't see them *starting* as larger-than-life, though they can certainly get there a lot faster than they might in Faerun or other settings. My point was more that, in an Eberron game, it tends to make sense that the PCs are the ones taking on dangerous and important jobs - you don't have to stop and think, "Now, why would the setting's superpowered archmage not be taking care of this vital task?" since there really isn't one. It also means that, if they fail, there could be serious, long-term consequences for Eberron as a whole, since there isn't a safety net of a bunch of epic-level folks to sweep in and fix things. That's something that really appeals to me.

As for wanting the characters to be more Indiana Jones than the X-Men... there's plenty of room for both in the 'Have the PCs be the heroes' concept. Take Raiders of the Lost Ark - at the end of the movie, Indy has deprived the Nazis of a very powerful weapon (never mind the fact that they couldn't exactly use it...), he's gotten well paid by the US government, and he got the girl. The only thing that keeps him from being a huge hero is the way the government handled things - rather than getting his name and face on the front page of every newspaper in America, they boxed up the Ark and put it in the warehouse.

Was Indy still *the* hero? I don't see how you could argue otherwise. He meets all the regular criteria - he got the girl, he survived, he was on the side of the good guys, and his name was (retroactively) in the title.

Was there a high-powered safety net in case Indy failed? Well, beyond the fact that the Ark sorta didn't like the Nazis (and really, can you blame it?), not that I see. If there was another solution, you have to imagine that the government would have used it before allowing an outsider like Indy to get involved - otherwise, they'd have just asked him who Abner Ravenwood was and they'd have been off to Nepal.

Would he have been more or less a hero if the government had made the whole thing public? And if he would have, doesn't that mean that your issue is with how the characters are seen by the rest of the world, rather than the characters themselves?

 

[Keefe the Thief]

can someone please tell me what this means??
messy

No. Because if we use the word "pulp" nowadays, it mostly means something else that it originally designated. Pulp Magazines were cheap, inexpensive novels that featured larger-than-life heroes who fought... things and had ... adventures. Heh, you see, already pretty hard to describe. Because Pulp has no clearly defined attributes that the story authors were aware of: basically they are action-adventures that want to write fun with a big F and utilize any kind of villain, storyline, strange event possible in order to reach that goal.

If we today talk about pulp, we no longer talk about that old magazines and stories alone. We refer to a style, a flavor for a story that is not very well defined but shares some common themes with it´s "ancestor stories". The problem is: everybody has it´s own idea of pulp.

Let´s demonstrate this. Think about your normal D&D adventuring party: Elven Wizard, Dwarven fighter, Human Paladin etc. Now, this is the first Eberron adventuring i conceptualized after getting the setting:
- A female shifter ranger, who hangs around with Daask gangmembers, respecting them as her pack but being torn about their drug trafficking and their violence.
- A dwarven artificer who drinks heavily, wears a fedora, has been thrown out of house Cannith for good and likes to give every magic item he creates a dark twist.
- A human wizard/psion who experienced the Mourning himself and has to be bound and gagged every night because of the terrible violent nightmares he has since then.
- A warforged monk with style who talks like an english butler all the time while kicking several kinds of snot out of his enemies.
- A halfling palading who is always dressed in simple, drab clothing, wears an old and battered breatplate (+5), a old notched bastard sword (holy avenger) and is so respectful of life and people that your teeth ache.

Their enemies include: A red-robed wizard who rides on the back of a giant bat and is really a transformed warforged. Scores of nameless Gnoll ninjas that attack in swarms. Vicious warforged samurai who will die for their lord without a thougth. And so on.

For me, this is pulp.

 

[Spatula]

That's one thing I particularly dislike. The PCs start as larger-than-life figures heading for godhood. If you like that sort of play, it's great, but if you prefer your characters to be more Indiana Jones than X-Men, the setting doesn't support it so much.

I'm not sure how a 1st level character is a larger-than-life hero.

 

[Spatula]

can someone please tell me what this means??

In the style of the American pulp magazines of the inter-world war period, of which there really is no one style. The Indiana Jones movies are pulp adventures, specifically created to emulate a certain kind of pulp story. But it's by no means the only kind of style from those days... Conan and Cthulhu also came from that time period. Other pulp heroes include the Shadow, the Phantom, and Doc Savage.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I'm not sure how a 1st level character is a larger-than-life hero.

In Eberron: Because he's a member of a PC class. Look through the ECS - most characters mainly have NPC classes, and they're low-level to the boot. And let's face it: NPC classes are extremely bad. And don't have max. hp on first level.

If a PC meets an average person on the street, he has usually at least twice as much hit points, even if he's a lowly wizard - that's special.

The PCs are larger-than-life, because the surrounding life is far worse.

In fact, only real protagonists and antagonists get PC classes at all. If you're looking in a film: The well-paid, well-recognized actors (the guys who get all the boulevard press) in a film are the guys with PC classes. Everybody else: NPC class, and low-level.

It's more a matter of comparison, than anything else - but it will make the PC stick out: Because they're generally (together with their enemies) the highest-level characters in the entire town/city/whatever.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Glyfair]

In the style of the American pulp magazines of the inter-world war period, of which there really is no one style. The Indiana Jones movies are pulp adventures, specifically created to emulate a certain kind of pulp story. But it's by no means the only kind of style from those days... Conan and Cthulhu also came from that time period. Other pulp heroes include the Shadow, the Phantom, and Doc Savage.

While there are a lot of genres of "pulp fiction" when roleplayers are talking about "pulp" roleplaying they are usually talking about pulp adventure (Doc Savage, the Shadow, Tarzan, and maybe some of the wild west pulps).

In Eberron: Because he's a member of a PC class. Look through the ECS - most characters mainly have NPC classes, and they're low-level to the boot. And let's face it: NPC classes are extremely bad. And don't have max. hp on first level.

While I wouldn't say a 1st level character in Eberron is "larger-than-life" he does hit that level much quicker than in other games. Once you hit 10th level, you will meet very few supporting NPCs at your level or higher (barring a trip to one mysterious city no one knows about, and fewer can find). At 5th level you are already notable and considered someone to worry about.

 

[Spatula]

In fact, only real protagonists and antagonists get PC classes at all.

Not at all true. Look through the Organization chapter of the ECS, it's full of unnamed goons with PC classes (generally in the level 4-6 range).

Typical BoV priest: cleric 5
Typical SF priest: cleric 4
Typical DB cultist: rogue 2/cleric 2
Typical Deneith Sentinel Marshal: paladin 5
etc.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Not at all true. Look through the Organization chapter of the ECS, it's full of unnamed goons with PC classes (generally in the level 4-6 range).

Typical BoV priest: cleric 5
Typical SF priest: cleric 4
Typical DB cultist: rogue 2/cleric 2
Typical Deneith Sentinel Marshal: paladin 5
etc.

Player characters are also distinguished by their PC classes. Most nobles are aristocrats, not fighters and wizards. The typical soldier uses warrior levels, and a common priest is an expert or adept, not a cleric. The PC classes are more versatile and powerful than NPC classes: a wizard is far superior to a magewright, and a cleric outstrips an adept both in battle and in the ability to use divine magic. As a result, even a low-level character with a PC class is a remarkable individual.

Elite forces such as the warforged troops produced in the Last War, the artificers of House Cannith, or the assassins of House Thuranni can use PC classes, and there certainly are clerics in the Church of the Silver Flame in addition to experts and adepts. These people are remarkable individuals in their own right, and even at low levels they command respect from those around them. In a world where the average soldier is a 2nd-level warrior, a 5th-level fighter can be an important individual. This is the case in Eberron.

The important thing is that NPCs do not follow the same rules as PCs. They do not acquire experience and advance in levels as player characters do. It's perfectly possible for a Brelish soldier to spend 20 years fighting in the wars and still be a 2nd or 3rd-level warrior. This is not about realism; if it was, you'd never see any 20th-level characters, when you consider the superhuman level of skill this represents. This is about replicating the flavor of movies and novels in which heroes and villains stand far above the common folk. The supporting cast shouldn't overshadow the main characters.

From here. Reading through that, I get a very different impression. And "typical priest" is for me the leader of a community - If a typical SF priest from an average church is only 4th level, then he's already somebody at the top of the hierarchy. And a Deneith Sentinel Marshal: I do not perceive the Dragonmark Houses as "goons". While they are unnamed, I they're all exemplars of their role - it's a marshal, not a average solder. It's about priests, not about acolytes. Though I'm a bit dumb-fondled by the "typical DB cultist". And a bit about the heavy use of PC classes.

EDIT: Note that I'm an avid reader of everything, Keith Baker produces - in fact, his posts are one of the main reasons, why I visit the WotC boards. And Keith Baker's Eberron (naturally) differs a bit from other authors' stances towards Eberron. Personally, I like Keith's direction, but the books contain all directions, which are all perfectly valid, thus I presume, that my view is influenced by my preferences, hence your mileage may vary - greatly.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Rechan]

In fact, only real protagonists and antagonists get PC classes at all.

Not true.

The setting assumes that 10% of the population has PC classes. That's a wide breadth from "Just PCs and badguys".

Player characters are also distinguished by their PC classes. Most nobles are aristocrats, not fighters and wizards. The typical soldier uses warrior levels, and a common priest is an expert or adept, not a cleric. The PC classes are more versatile and powerful than NPC classes: a wizard is far superior to a magewright, and a cleric outstrips an adept both in battle and in the ability to use divine magic. As a result, even a low-level character with a PC class is a remarkable individual.

Elite forces such as the warforged troops produced in the Last War, the artificers of House Cannith, or the assassins of House Thuranni can use PC classes, and there certainly are clerics in the Church of the Silver Flame in addition to experts and adepts. These people are remarkable individuals in their own right, and even at low levels they command respect from those around them. In a world where the average soldier is a 2nd-level warrior, a 5th-level fighter can be an important individual. This is the case in Eberron.

Just because the Average, or Most, are NPC classes does not mean that the 1st level PC is a rock star.

 

[Hairfoot]

As for wanting the characters to be more Indiana Jones than the X-Men... there's plenty of room for both in the 'Have the PCs be the heroes' concept.

My point is more that Indy is just a man. An intrepid, clever, very lucky man, but still just a man. 3E took PCs out of that mould and made them megamen, able to leap around like spring-loaded dicing machines, conquer hordes of fierce opponents single-handed, and regularly perform supra-human acts.

Eberron, more than any other setting, encourages that type of character and play. As I said, it's great for players that enjoy high-power comic-book fantasy, but the OP might be disappointed if he prefers things on a grittier, more mortal level.



EDIT:

dumb-fondled

That's beautiful. If I didn't loathe sigs, I'd sig it.