So what about the everyman?

[Alratan]

So what? Do you think kings are somehow superior to everyone else in some respect other than political influence/authority?

In D&D terms the aristocracy are just about the only people who start off PC classed, as everyone else is used as cheap labour as a child rather than educated.

 

[xechnao]

In D&D terms the aristocracy are just about the only people who start off PC classed, as everyone else is used as cheap labour as a child rather than educated.

Hmm, what about Spartacus? Or perhaps Little John? Or even a sailor that rises to become an infamous pirate? Well, you could portray those in D&D, although you would have to come with the outlaw and bandid weight setting wise, and not the mercenary one adventures usually are about. You could somewhat easily run these things in Darksun I guess.
Then, what about a d&d sorceror, mage, psion or priest? Do they have had to be aristocrats to gain their magic or divine talents? It is kind of tricky to try to see historical facts like aristocracy through d&d which is so heavy on magic and divine powers, yet without elaborating enough to make it clear how it works for societies.

 

[Death Dealer]

And I see the increase in low-level hps as an advantage to this Everyman image. In 3e, that first goblin encounter, every hit from the goblin's sword is a scewer through the character's chest that could result in utter death. One hit. On a crit, sure, that very well could represent a chest-scewer. But a regular hit should only be a cut, a small gash across the arm that, while painful and a hinderance, shouldn't knock the wizard out.

By increasing the HP at first level, WotC is decreasing the huge jump resilience betwen 1st and 2nd, and even 2nd and 3rd. Going from 10 hp to 18 is a dramatic powering up of a character from 1st to 2nd level. Going from 32 to 40 isn't such a large discrepency; there is no longer a practical doubling of a character's power because he went from 1st to 2nd lvl.

Let's not forget the Goblin can still roll a critical hit, thus hitting our everyman with the chest-screwer. He just isn't as likely to do it with every attack roll, which makes for better gameplay, better storytelling, and is more fair in my books.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

At first level in 4e, you are already a "hero," which is to say you're at the very least experienced in dealing with danger. If you want to play this as an "everyman" character, it wouldn't be too hard to start out as a ranger (farmboy/girl who learned archery and tracking from Dad) or rogue (street-smart kid fresh from the school of hard knocks) or fighter (experienced soldier/mercenary/thug).

 

[Scribble]

OK folks, THIS is what I mean. (Scribble, your quote kind of sums things up nicely, please don't feel as if I'm picking on you directly, unfortunately, you have the unenviable talent of summing up the mish-mash of ideas so far.)

Don't worry, you can quote me all you want... I don't get offended by debate. But I think this ability you attribute to me is unwarranted, as I think I still haven't clearly articulated what I'm trying to...

A hero is NOT a special person. Most heroes will tell you, they are no one special; just ordinary folks that did extraordinary things when the time warranted.

Sure, that's exactly what makes them special. They did what had to be done, when the time came to do it. The mere fact that they did what others would or could not do makes them a HERO. I'm not saying that in real life there's a "magical force" that is better in them then other people. I'm simply saying in the context of whatever story, the hero is a hero because he or she did something others didn't.

Farmer Joe and Farmer Jack, each of them are normal everyday guys farming along on their little plot of land. Goblins attack and demand tribute again for the Sorcerer Lord of the North. Farmer Jack cowers down, and again pays tribute.

But Farmer Joe... He looks at his kids, and his wife, and his friends... He decides to fight back. He pulls out his trusty scythe he uses for harvest season, and fights the goblins. It's tough, but he does it. Then he heads off down the road to find this Sorcerer Lord...

Farmer Joe is a HERO. Now if a few pages later a random goblin jumps out and kills him thats a pretty lame/short story isn't it???

In the context of the game, if a few rounds into your characters first adventure a random monster kills your character because of an unlucky die roll that's pretty lame isn't it?

In a book the author lets his hero make it through to save the day. It may seem at times as if the end is near, but somehow, our hero makes it through alive.

In the context of the game, they need to give you the tools to "let your hero make it through to save the day."

You don't have to explain them as super powers that only special people get. It's just your character doing what needs to be done to overcome whatever obstacle prevents him from doing what's important.

In the book, Farmer Joe fights the sorcerer Lord who uses his spells to try to Dominate Joe and turn him into an undead minion. Thoughts of his family and the things that will happen should he fail well up inside of him, and he overcomes the spell and thrusts his scythe into the Sorcerer Lord...

In the game, Farmer Joe's player uses a special power that gives him a bonus to his Will Defense. The spell fails and on Joe's initiative he attacks.

It's the same thing.

So in essence, anyone CAN be a hero, but only heroes ARE heroes simply because they did what needs to be done, and the other guy did not. It's not a force that gives them the power, and only certain select few get to be the hero. They made themselves into heroes, and made themselves special.

As an aside, at the end of the game, your character can still decide he's an everyman just like everyone else. But do you really think anyone else would? Even in the stories like LOTR and Shannara... Afterwards the characters were changed. People looked at the things they did and saw a great man. They didn't just come home and have someone say, eh.. whatever dude. People looked at the things they accomplished in wonder and awe.

One of the things I liked about the original game and most of its incarnations was the sense of growth the character experienced over time. Starting with 3.x (thought 2e had its share) its seems that leveling is quicker, abilities are growing out of control and things are heading down the slippery power slope.

But I take this as simply the designers realizing they need to do a little more to allow you character to be the hero in the book instead of a redshirt that bites it on page 2.

But I long for the days when 'ultimate' power wasn't so easily gained and you had to 'work' for the payoff.

I personally want a game where my friends and I can tell good stories and think back on a fun experience. If everyone's guy dies every other fight, thats lame, and in no way simulates the books that I read, where the hero, despite all odds, manages to always have a trick up his or her sleeve.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A hero is NOT a special person. Most heroes will tell you, they are no one special; just ordinary folks that did extraordinary things when the time warranted.

Most of human history would disagree with you.

The John McCains (from Die Hard) of the world are a pretty recent invention. Mythology is filled with god-children, chosen scions, noble-blooded kings, magical leaders, mystical warriors, and other very, very special people.

Now, in the real world, especially today, yes, people considered "heroes" will tell you that they are no one special. And, in D&D terms, they aren't really special. They're commoners, they're Everybodies, they're 0-levels. Even the US Marine, even the President, even the firefighters and police officers and simple noble people AREN'T anything special, and that's what makes them REAL heroes -- they face things that most of us really can't. Their heroics isn't in their stats, it's in their character.

But I'm not playing D&D to be a firefighter or a Marine. I'm playing D&D to be an epic hero of legend.

In fact, thinking about it using the Die Hard analogy might be pretty useful. John McCain in that series is just "some guy." He's not supposed to be anything special. In the first film, he's not doing anything other than being brave, by and large. That's something an NPC can do, something one of us could do, the heroism in a firefighter or a police officer. By the time the most recent movie rolled around and he was dodging missiles from jets. That's D&D style heroics, mythological heroics, heroics that make good summer blockbuster fare.

It's incredibly difficult to the point of near-impossibility to play a believeable first-film John McCain in D&D. When wizards sling bolts of flame and rogues are nearly invisible and fighters cut orcs in twain, the guy who's just "Ed The Gardener" doesn't warrant a place, no matter how heroic he may be. He can't cleave goblins, he can't weave magic...if he could grow turnips in 3 minutes from any soil imaginable, we might be talking, but "Ed the Gardener" can't contribute in a world of high magic and mythic might.

In a more realistic setting, a more (dare I use the cliche?) grim-n-gritty setting, Ed the Gardner and Bob the Town Watchman and Evilina the gypsy huckster might all make for very compelling and interesting heroes in the "we are the same as anyone, we just CHOOSE differently!" sense. But in D&D, they aren't the same as anyone. They're demonstrably WEAKER than this rare group that calls themselves Adventurers. And for that, a more old-school, mythic, "be something special" motif is demanded.

In short, in order to make the everyman a hero, the whole campaign has to support it.

D&D's ruleset and implied setting don't. They support a more mythic, magical feel.

They always have.

 

[Scribble]

The John McCains (from Die Hard) of the world are a pretty recent invention.

pssst.

It's McLane.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

The John McCains (from Die Hard) of the world are a pretty recent invention.

McClane. John McCain is a presidential candidate and former P.O.W. He's also not a very recent invention.

D&D's ruleset and implied setting don't. They support a more mythic, magical feel.

They always have.

Rolling 3d6 in order, then choosing your class, "felt" to me like the system was saying, "Okay, you're just some guy in the world, and now you're deciding to be an adventurer." You aren't necessarily superior by virtue of being a main character. You might or might not have more HP than the "Normal Man" barkeep.

 

[Remathilis]

So what? Do you think kings are somehow superior to everyone else in some respect other than political influence/authority?

Dennis: Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

 

[Nifft]

Rolling 3d6 in order, then choosing your class, "felt" to me like the system was saying, "Okay, you're just some guy in the world, and now you're deciding to be an adventurer." You aren't necessarily superior by virtue of being a main character. You might or might not have more HP than the "Normal Man" barkeep.

Sure... if you roll poorly.

But there will also be times when you roll well.

And those well-rolled PCs tended to survive -> were able to become high level -> eventually became super-heroes.

Cheers, -- N