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So, wizards fight like fighters?

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Andur said:
Ignore the melee part of it...

Ranged weapons:

Dex 16 using shuriken:

Wizard 1/2 level + 3
Fighter 1/2 level + 3

No exploits or spells for either one to modify anything...

Without exploits and spells, they aren't fighters and wizards. They're ocmmoners, and identical.

Basically: ALL characters start with the same base BAB and dmaage potential, and this BAB gets modified by powers, etc. which are made available on a per-class basis.

The initial BAB, quie frankly, is insignificant. Basing a judgement on that just means one hasn't read the 4E rules or doesn't understand the key differnces between it and 3.5.
 

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Andur said:
Ignore the melee part of it...

Ranged weapons:

Dex 16 using shuriken:

Wizard 1/2 level + 3
Fighter 1/2 level + 3

No exploits or spells for either one to modify anything...

Hmm, so you check if a Wizard is fighting like a Fighter by having the Fighter not fight like a Fighter?

;)
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Andur said:
Ignore the melee part of it...

Ranged weapons:

Dex 16 using shuriken:

Wizard 1/2 level + 3
Fighter 1/2 level + 3

No exploits or spells for either one to modify anything...
So... you're saying that two guys fighting with styles that they suck at are equally bad...

Wow, big surprise.
 

DSRilk

First Post
They just ereased different babs to streamline the rules

They erased different BABs so that there wasn't the problem of "fighters have +30 to hit and wizards have +15 at high levels" which caused creatures to either be immune to wizards attempting to attack them or impossible for the fighter to miss.

Yes, wizards are roughly equivalent to a fighter of the same level if they have the same ability scores, are using the same weapon, are both proficient with that weapon, and they're only using basic attacks. That said, the melee power of classes comes from their powers, which makes them MUCH better at melee and/or ranged combat than wizards with the same stats and training.

I think of it like the Lord of the Rings movies. Gandalf smashes orcs with his staff and they drop like flies. However, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas spin and twirl, like whirlwinds of death. Yeah, the wizard kills minion orcs in a blow just like the fighters, but the fighters butcher them rapidly and only the fighters really engage the giant troll in physical combat. This is just like 4e would play out if the wizard decided to melee.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
Aaron said:
A wizard that swings his sword like a proud fighter?

Not very D&D for me.

It's not very D&D for me, either. . . but that's not a bad thing. The whole "wizard killed by housecats" thing has always been a bug (not a feature of D&D), for me. ;)
 

Celebrim

Legend
4e requires a new way of looking at things.

In earlier editions, fighters were simply better fighters - more hit points, better attack bonuses, more attacks, higher damage, etc. - than other classes. That has largely vanished as a distinguishing feature. They still slightly lead in some of those categories, but the difference is much much smaller.

In 4e, the real distinguishing feature is that fighters have 'weapon magic' and other classes have different sorts of magic as appropriate to the theme of the class. Fighters can, after recharging thier ki (or however you prefer to look at it), do extraordinary magical things with thier weapons. Like the wizard, they can only do most of thier 'weapon spells' every five minutes or so, and only once each in those five minutes, and some of them only once a day. However, they can do amazing things, like automatically overcome a second target's defences no matter how strong if they strike an ally, or 'cut the wind' so that the target is damaged even if they miss, or cause thier sword to reach out and strike everything in 15' square, or move greater than thier normal speed in a flurry of attacks, or knock everyone nearby off thier feet, and so forth (I haven't read the whole book, but that sort of thing).

Wizards are quite unable to perform that sort of 'weapon magic', but are extremely skilled at summoning the elements and blasting thier foes at a distance so it balances out.

Really, combat in 4e is more like 'Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers' or other Japanese/Asian inspired settings. Everyone has secret techniques - ('Unstoppable Bonzai!', 'Water Dragon Tailcut', 'Viper Strike' or whatever) that they've learned through intense training, and they can do these techniques but (most importantly) not repeatedly without first recovering thier chi. So, in a fight, typically you see them try various super techniques but they only use them once before trying something else. It's very cinematic.
 

Aaron

First Post
Celebrim said:
However, they can do amazing things, like automatically overcome a second target's defences no matter how strong if they strike an ally
This sounds quite sarcastic... :)

Morrus said:
Without exploits and spells, they aren't fighters and wizards. They're ocmmoners, and identical.
That's exactly my point.

I can see where you come from, but it nonetheless bugs me.

Shouldn't a fighter be able to strike with more precision than a wizard without using any power?

What about when they are out of powers?
 

Dunamin

First Post
Aaron said:
Shouldn't a fighter be able to strike with more precision than a wizard without using any power?
He does.

Even when resorting to basic attacks and ignoring feats, the fighter still strikes better with his talent style and on top of that will be using a superior class of weaponry (military).
 
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Nightchilde-2

First Post
Njall said:
Well, the high level powers from the fighter's list we've seen deal x[W] damage, IIRC...that means a high level wizard with a decent strength score can deal the damage a fighter dealt at 1st level at best.

The *high* level powers? Brutal Strike. Lvl 1 daily. 3[W] damage.

I just created a human fighter about 10 minutes ago, and he's VICIOUS.
 


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