D&D 5E Some slightly fiddly combat rules questions

[Moravave]

So still running my first ever 5e adventure (Phandelver) and last night we came across a few situations where we were a little unclear on the rules (I moved it along fast with old school "rulings" but as someone interested in the system I'd like to see how these would work BtB)

The situation: the characters fought the skeletons in the Tressedar Crypt and are about to open the door to the jail cell. They were here earlier in disguises so they know there are two Redbrands in there.

I decide to have the two Redbrands hide, one on the north square one on the south square. The door opens on what we'll call the middle square.

The fighter leads the way. He opens the door. I tell him he sees nothing. He steps into the middle square and I give the Redbrands surprise and they both get an attack on him before everyone rolls for initiative. I probably should have compared passive stealth vs perception but I forgot to. They had been steamrolling the dungeon and I wanted to add a literal surprise.

My questions are:

1. Let's say he used Ready Action with his sword, would that mean that he could have gotten a hit on one of them first even though he would have been surprised? Also would being ready negate surprise since he was expecting it? I'm still unclear about Ready Action and if it means you get to do something BEFORE the thing that triggered it....

2. The other fighter in the back DID use Ready Action with his bow before the door was opened However I ruled that nothing happened since they would not have been in his line of sight at the time of attack (he was behind fighter and couldn't see through walls).

3. Let's say they wanted to listen to the door to see if they were hiding. Would that also be passive perception vs stealth?

Thanks in advance! Love this game and outside of little confusions like this I love the 5e system...

 

[iserith]

First, you determine surprise, then roll initiative. Then everyone who isn't surprised acts normally. Those who are surprised take no actions on their first turn and have no reactions until the end of their first turn.

Ready action happens only in combat. You can say you have a sword at the ready outside of combat, but you get no particular advantage. As normal, initiative determines whether you get to attack someone before they act. (As does surprise, if applicable.)

Listening at the door to detect someone on the other side, IF you think the outcome of that action is uncertain, is a Wisdom (Perception) check against the Dexterity (Stealth) check of the creatures trying to hide. However, I think it is reasonable to use the passive Stealth score instead if the creatures have been lurking for a while.

 

[ad_hoc]

double post.

 

[ad_hoc]

The fighter leads the way. He opens the door. I tell him he sees nothing. He steps into the middle square and I give the Redbrands surprise and they both get an attack on him before everyone rolls for initiative. I probably should have compared passive stealth vs perception but I forgot to. They had been steamrolling the dungeon and I wanted to add a literal surprise.

They can't attack without rolling for initiative. There are no surprise rounds. Everyone rolls initiative first. If you are surprised you spend your turn doing nothing but you can take reactions after.

1. Let's say he used Ready Action with his sword, would that mean that he could have gotten a hit on one of them first even though he would have been surprised? Also would being ready negate surprise since he was expecting it? I'm still unclear about Ready Action and if it means you get to do something BEFORE the thing that triggered it....

You can't use the Ready action if you aren't in combat. If he said he suspects an ambush in the room then it is your call. The thing is, you can't always expect an ambush. That is why there is the opposed check mechanic (passive perception vs stealth). If he had a particularly good reason to suspect an ambush I might allow it, but not just because he never wants to be ambushed. He needs to take the Alert feat for that.

*edit* I see that you said they know there are enemies hiding in there. In that case there would be no surprise since they are aware of their enemies. They are still unseen, but they won't be surprised.

2. The other fighter in the back DID use Ready Action with his bow before the door was opened However I ruled that nothing happened since they would not have been in his line of sight at the time of attack (he was behind fighter and couldn't see through walls).

Again, can't use Ready when not in combat. As to expecting an ambush, same applies as above.

*edit2* The reason you can't use Ready is because the enemy will also use Ready then we're down to both sides readying and you might as well just use regular initiative. It doesn't make sense.

3. Let's say they wanted to listen to the door to see if they were hiding. Would that also be passive perception vs stealth?

Up to you. In that case I would probably have them roll vs passive stealth because it's more fun for the player.

 

[CydKnight]

If it were me, I would have had the Fighter (PC) roll a perception check against the Redbrands Stealth roll after he opened the door and before he stepped into the room. If the Fighter's roll is lower, then the Redbrands can take a surprise attack after his first step into the room.

To me, there is no opportunity for a "Ready" action yet because combat has not begun at the point you described one.

For listening at the door, I'm not sure what that would accomplish since you already explained the party knew the Redbrands were there because they had previously seen them in this room while disguised. I suppose you could do a perception check to determine their general location in the room but that doesn't tell you whether their intent is to hide or whether they are hiding with intent to surprise attack. As far as the PCs know, the Redbrands in this room still believe they are Redbrands too. This would require an Insight check in my opinion (and probably a difficult one) because you are trying to determine intent based on perceived location in the room which you cannot see from the PCs position until it is too late.

So if the player's are not telling you their intent before entering the room, and being very specific about their actions about how they plan to enter the room to avoid a surprise attack, then avoiding it will be difficult at best. Just because you think there might be a trap doesn't always mean you will avoid it and sometimes it's not about what the player thinks he knows, it's what the PC actually does know and those kinds of things should always be left up to a dice roll in my opinion.

 

[jaelis]

I'd agree that if the player knew there were enemies in the room, there shouldn't be surprise. This might be a situation though where I'd say the ambushers should simply get to go first, if they could see/hear the players coming but were well hidden. If feel it's reasonable to just assign initiative when the situation calls for it, rather than rolling.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

The surprise rules generally work pretty well, but they do have the drawback of announcing to your players that combat has begun (ie, asking for initiative) before narrating the first hidden enemy's attack, which can be an unsatisfying situation. I recommend rolling initiative for your players yourself in such situations, that way you don't have to let them know a surprise attack is coming until the attack happens. If you do so, make sure you are aware of any reactions that characters who beat enemy initiative might have available that could interrupt the attacks, so that you can avoid narrating preventable results.

The other drawback is that players and DMs coming from prior editions are almost always surprised by and unaware of the surprise rules.

 

[Shiroiken]

1. Let's say he used Ready Action with his sword, would that mean that he could have gotten a hit on one of them first even though he would have been surprised? Also would being ready negate surprise since he was expecting it? I'm still unclear about Ready Action and if it means you get to do something BEFORE the thing that triggered it....

There has been various arguments about this, but the question becomes "can you Ready outside of combat?" In general, I say no, since I want to roll Initiative and deal with Surprise rather than Ready Actions (also, many players want BOTH a Readied Action and Surprise, which is WAY too strong). I could see allowing some actions to be Readied, but it would be a case by case basis. Also, if you are surprised, you can't take Readied Actions anyway, since you can't take Reactions until after your first Turn (when the Readied Action would end).

Oh, and yes "Readied" is a Reaction which in general does interrupt and happen before the trigger (such as moving out of reach triggering an Attack of Opportunity).

2. The other fighter in the back DID use Ready Action with his bow before the door was opened However I ruled that nothing happened since they would not have been in his line of sight at the time of attack (he was behind fighter and couldn't see through walls).

If you allowed a Readied Action out of combat, then yes, the trigger hadn't happened yet (I assume "I shoot the first enemy I see").

3. Let's say they wanted to listen to the door to see if they were hiding. Would that also be passive perception vs stealth?

No, it would be their rolled Perception against rolled Stealth. Passive is used when no action is being attempted. For example, when you attempt to hide you roll Stealth against Passive Perception, but if they attempt to find you as an Action, they roll against your Stealth roll.

 

[ad_hoc]

The surprise rules generally work pretty well, but they do have the drawback of announcing to your players that combat has begun (ie, asking for initiative) before narrating the first hidden enemy's attack, which can be an unsatisfying situation. I recommend rolling initiative for your players yourself in such situations, that way you don't have to let them know a surprise attack is coming until the attack happens. If you do so, make sure you are aware of any reactions that characters who beat enemy initiative might have available that could interrupt the attacks, so that you can avoid narrating preventable results.

Can you provide an example where this is a problem?

In my experience it plays out like this:

Enemies have surprised you, everyone roll initiative. Okay, the enemies do what they do.

It just plays out like regular combat. It's just that it takes longer to get to the character's turns. Sometimes enemies will get 2 attacks in before any character has a chance to do anything.

If a character beats the enemy's initiative then you can just tell the player they have reactions available to whatever it is the enemy is doing.

The only time it becomes tricky is with the Alert feat. In that case they can sometimes get a turn before enemies have done anything. This is still fine, as they likely won't be able to do much. They will likely either search for the enemies or take a defense posture, both things that are in line with someone who is exceptionally alert.

 

[ad_hoc]

No, it would be their rolled Perception against rolled Stealth. Passive is used when no action is being attempted. For example, when you attempt to hide you roll Stealth against Passive Perception, but if they attempt to find you as an Action, they roll against your Stealth roll.

This is inaccurate.

Passive and Active refers to the player not the character.

Passive simply means that the player does not do anything. Active means the player makes a roll.

Whether or not the character is being passive or active doesn't impact whether there is a passive or active check.