MASS REPLY
I was suggesting a different ability at higher level, again not from a power but a flavor perspective. You don't necessarily have to have a hardcore +5 to something insane ability to make it cool, just different. Of course, now what those would be will take more intellectual effort
I agree that more abilities is more fun than one ability that keeps growing, but this could vary from lineage to lineage.
Ok. As much as flavor is really nice, flavor can still be maintained with an iterating ability. Perfect examples are Wild Shape, DR, Sneak Attack, Favored Enemy. I would prefer to keep the lineage abilities as relatively simple as possible, but more important come some form of balance.
Now granted, balance is purely subjective. However, there are two key points for balance. Is the power SO powerful that it is game breaking? Is the power so weak that it is not an incentive to remain in the class long enough to get it? As long as the power falls within these – its basically balanced.
With that said, I would like to try and keep the iterating abilities that are currently 8th and 17th, though I am not sure the levels acquired are correct yet. What I may agree is that the “Third Lineage Power” you all want be the 20th level power. Thoughts?
I am also thinking of staggering the Innate Spells to a wider level range as they ARE quite powerful. I am also looking at placing a further penalty on the Innate Spells. In addition to losing a Spell-Known slot, the Sorcerer ALSO loses one Spell Per Day slot of that spell level. This basically means that when the sorcerer gains their 1st level Spell-Like Ability, they lose a Spell-Known (thus cant be cast out of their daily spell slots anymore) and lose one 1st level spell per day that they can cast. In exchange they gain an Innate Spell-Like Ability that can be used CHA Mod. times/day. Thoughts?
Be careful when making spells known comparisions because higher level spells are innately worth more than lower level ones. I would do a weighting system... perhaps a 1st level spell is worth 1/9 a spell known, 2nd 1/8 and so on... though level 9's should get a slightly higher than just 1 imo, they are a far step above 8th than 8th is over 7th. If anyone would like to run those numbers and see the comparision that would be nice to see.
I am totally lost by what you mean here. If you mean a comparison of spells known at 20th…
Yes there is the potential to know more higher level spells, but no more potential to use them. More flexible but not more powerful. There are also more low level spell forced to be known as well.
SPELL EVOLUTION
One thing I never liked about SKR's suggestion for spell evolution is that you actually lose functionality. If you trade up invisibility for invisibility sphere and take a new second level spell, it means you have to cast invis. as a 3rd level spell forevermore. Not only that, you can't cast it in the middle of a crowded combat without turning everyone around you invisible. Ditto for fly/overland flight and all the other spell paths.
I see Spell Evolution as just the opposite. Keep in mind the ability states the same thing that Spell Swapping states.
“When a sorcerer acquires new known spells, and they have a spell that exists on a spell path with an appropriate higher-level spell available, the sorcerer can choose to “upgrade” the spell-path spell they already know, replacing the original spell with the upgraded spell.”
This is a choice up to the player. A sorcerer does not HAVE to Swap spells nor do they HAVE to evolve spells. Personally I have played sorcerers in 3.0 and 3.5 and I love Spell Evolution. When I have
Invisibility already but I really want
Improved Invisibility – I hate feeling like I am wasting 2 precious spell slots for the same effect especially when one is better than the other. This only allows a “logical” way to increase that ever so precious Spell Swapping. But instead of just making standard Spell Swapping every level, this puts some control on it and only allows it for logically linked spells, unlike Spell Swapping which you can trade
Invisibility for
Melf’s Acid Arrow if you really want.
Can't we come up with a better way? One solution would be to let the spell you trade up for subsume a lower-level spell. So if I have Feather Fall at 1st level, then learn Levitate at 4th level, I can evolve Feather Fall into Levitate but still be able to cast feather fall as a free action when I walk into that pit.
Though I really like this idea… It would require re-writing the magic system, which is something I don’t want to get into doing. Not for a class build. Maybe for the advanced rules?
SORCERER FOCI
I don't think a sorcerer's focus should be based on lineage; the default sorcerer is one that learns on their own and these will invariably come up with a wide range of personal foci for their magic. I've described this idea before. Under the philosophy of KISS, probably better to have no foci at all.
IF they have a focus I agree that it should be personal and not lineage based. What I have been toying with to fill this role and combine it with the % of people that want sorcerers to have familiars is to use the
Item Familiar rules from
Unearthed Arcana.
For any who do not have that resource, the basics are thus:
Prerequisites: 3rd level, Item must be a permanent magic item usable by the sorcerer (must have appropriate proficiencies and know how to use the item), be of at least 2,000gp value
Loss: If you lose the item (removed from possession for a continuous period of more than one day per level) or if destroyed, automatically lose 200XP per level as well as all benefits derived from possessing the linked item (plus any resources placed in the item). If the item is recovered, regain the lost XP. May replace a lost or stolen item familiar after advancing one level, as if gaining the it for the first time.
Bonding: Similar to familiar bond. Can be suppressed by
antimagic field or similar effect, but not dispelled. Once bonded the item gains additional powers or intelligence, and can be invested with abilities.
Item Familiar Table
3…..Invest Life Energy, Invest Skill Ranks, Invest Spell Slots
7…..Sapience, Senses, Communication
10…Special Ability
14…Special Ability
18…Special Ability
23+..One additional Special Ability per 3 levels over 20
Brief Summary:
* Investing Life: Must be done before 7th level and grants a 10% XP bonus on current and all future gained XP. Loss of the item = loss of all extra XP gained as well as the 200xp/level penalty.
* Investing Skill Ranks: When gaining skill points may put some or all into the item. Assign points normally but indicate that some ranks are stored in the item. Per 3 ranks invested = +1 bonus to any one skill (including one already at max ranks). Multiple bonuses can be applied to the same skill, but cant have more bonuses than ranks in the skill. Loss of item = loss of all skill points invested, the ranks from those invested points, the bonuses gained from the investment and the 200xp/level penalty.
* Investing Spell Slots: Cannot be activated until have access to 2nd level spells. Invest a slot of the highest level available and gain a bonus slot of 2 levels lower in return. As the caster gains or loses the levels the spell slot invested changes so it is always the highest level spell slot. Note that the invested spell slot works normally – but if the item is lost BOTH bonus and normal spell slots are lost.
* Sapience: Gains INT, WIS, CHA (2 @ 10, 1 @ 12). Also gains an Ego (not to effect the player as the item is utterly loyal unless the owner radically changes alignment, is under compulsion, etc.).
* Senses: Sees and Hears within 60’ – does not roll separate Spot & Listen but grants owner Alertness when wielded.
* Communication: Empathic when carried or worn
* Special Ability Choices: (All have special costs – usually gp and time)
Armor, Shield or Weapon Special Ability (If armor, shield or weapon)
Cantrips/Orisons (invested with ability to cast all 0-level spells on owners spell list a number of times per day as a Sorcerer of the owner’s level)
Lesser Power (as Intelligent item table)
Greater Power (as Intelligent item table; must have 1 lesser)
Improved Senses (darkvision 60’)
Greater Senses (Blindsense 30’; must have Improved Senses)
Increased Sapience (+4 to 1 score, +2 to 2 scores, communicates telepathically to 120’ and speaks common + 1 language per Int Mod; may be taken more than once – all stack but telepathy)
Special Purpose/Dedicated Power (as Intelligent item table)
Spell Use (Makes a single spell an Innate Spell-Like Ability; must invested a spell slot, must abide by Eschew; counts against spells per day, must have access to 3rd level spells)
* Improving: The item can be improved as other magic items, but doesn’t require the item creation feat, but all other costs apply.
Here's a radical idea: give each lineage a list of appropriate class skills, and let the sorcerer pick any two to add to their skill list. I'm still not crazy about the idea of giving them all the social interaction skills just like that. One or two only should be automatic, and their skill points should still be 2/level.
I know their flavor text argues for a lot of roles, but no one sorcerer should be able to fulfull all of them. One could argue that fighters should all be athletic (Climb/Jump/Swim), know how to ride (Ride/Handle Animal), and repair their own weapons/armor (Craft)--but they still only get 2 skill points per level. Clerics have it even worse, IMO. Let them invest in Int if they want a skilly character; magic trumps skills in almost every case anyway.
Gypsy might have Prof: fortune-telling, Sense Motive, Appraise, Perform, Speak Language
Dragon: Appraise, Intimidate...? etc.
I will think on this. The problem here is the argument made before. There is only one class with this mutable a skill list – Expert. All others have a set skill list with clerics also gaining a possible bonus due to domain. If we do a different “Skill List” for every lineage – we are getting into the realm of writing lineage specific PrC’s again – which will come later.
As for points, Fighters get 2+ because they are an unlearned class, and are portrayed as the dumb sword swinger. I personally don’t agree with the fighter skill selection or skill points. There is more to being a fighter than swinging a weapon. But that’s JMHO. The only reason wizards have 2+ is because their primary stat is already INT and the bonus stacking would be ridiculous. Sorcerers are a self-taught class. All of the other self-taught classes have more than 2+ skill points.
I will keep my mind open on this one, but most alt. designers have gone with 4+ including Monte.
Keep them coming.
