D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

[MostlyHarmless42]

There is no question that spell options are limited compared to a wizard. I take alter self and enhance ability (not available to wizards) as 2nd level spells to apply some utility, shield, sleep, and usually burning hands. Usually firebolt and 3 utility cantrips. That's fine at low levels.

For what a lot of spells do I just rely on skills and equipment just like other classes. It's less of a "have not" and more of a "have less" scenario comparing utility magic to skills and equipment. Some people might want more but it works well for me.

And I would argue from your spell selection that you have just rolled a FIRE sorcerer. See my previous post about how there are two sorcerer specs that are leaps and bounds more effective than any other. Show me how to roll a blaster build that is just as effective focused around the element of acid, or God forbid poison, which several dragon sorcerers are incentivised to do. Heck, there are *multiple* origins focused around lightning despite there not being a single ranged lightning cantrip (a 15ft spell that pulls enemies toward you does NOT count as ranged, nor does blowing all your spell points to make shocking grasp 30ft), and the only lightning damage spell below 3rd level being one of the worst spells in the game without serious houseruling. Speaking of awful spells, enhance ability and alter self are both contenders as well, albeit the latter is quite effective out of combat despite you arguing that spell slots should not be used for precisely that.

Preparing 2 more spells than the sorcerer knows doesn't allow for casting more 2nd level spell slots while choosing scalable 1st level spells known can give variety in the use of those 2nd level slots.

Where 2 more spells known does make a big difference is ritual casting, where the wizard can infinitely cast detect magic or identify on the fighter's new magic sword or a magic puzzle all by the party agreeing to take a quick breather or short rest, or read the future using augury for a player or npc, or help the party sleep safer from ambushes by placing an alarm or two while setting up camp. Ritual casting is a bigger deal than most realize, often more so for roleplaying purposes than actual optimization, granted, but it is a noticeable quality of life impact.

If rituals were really all that then optimizers would be promoting the feat all over the place. As it is, ritual caster can be replaced by a feat but metamagic cannot. That is because metamagic is a far more potent feature.

The reason why optimizes dont rate the feat highly is because it requires a character to use the respective ability score for ritual casting of the class they pick a list from. Wizards have the best list for spell selection for the feat, but use Intelligence, forcing the sorcerer to need to boost a second ability score for casting that would otherwise be "useless" from an optimization standpoint. All of the charisma options for the feat have like five or six spells that are ritual tagged at most because they were not designed with ritualcasting in mind. The exception being the bard, which has 14 spells all of whom are out of combat utility spells. Granted I personally think that this is quite a hell of a feat for a sorcerer to take and have seen it done no less than twice at my table by various non-ritual casters who are charisma based, but again most optimization guides tend to only focus on combat potency.

Challenge laid down, challenge accepted.

Using Divine Soul Sorcerer.

Spirit Guardians meets 1 & 2, Finger of Death and Chromatic Orb meets 3, hold monster meets 4, mage Armour and mirror image meets 5, thunder step and Planeshift meet 6, Polymorph meets 5, 6, 7, and 9, Charm Person meets 8 & 5. That is with just 10 spells. Conjure Celestial adds in some summoning and helps with most of the spell types on your list, Wish hits all the points on your list, Aid offers healing and buffing, Major Image can be used for tons of stuff, Lesser Restoration cures most conditions, Mass Cure Wounds provides a ton of healing. Massive utility. And while Wings aren't techniquely a spell, it's better mobility then any spell the Wizard has.

Again, see my post about Devine Soul and Fire sorcerers being far superior to every other build. Show me a sorcerer who focuses on illusions and enchantments that is as fulfilling to play as an illusionist/enchanter wizard, any bard, trickery cleric, or Fey warlock, especially at a table where your DM allows players to try and "bluff" hiding their spells with a d*** skill check (I can stress how commonly I've seen this done due to previous editions).

Oh and with a single feat this Divine Soul can learn all the Wizards Rituals too and apply metamagic to them.

Yes, again, at the cost of needing a high intelligence. They should of gone bard. ;-)

I think the Wizard's best friend might just be... a Sorcerer (or Warlock?) in the same party; negating any expectation on me casting simple damage spells in my slots, and allowing me to god-wizard my way to real glory.

This is perhaps the real core of the issue I have with the class of the sorcerer. It falls into the same problem that the bard does: it is the best 5th man in the party. It can fulfill the party face quite well, the problem is that bards and warlocks do it better because the sorcerer spell list and origins force them to be blasters outside of divine soul, which then feels like cleric light (the support). Heck, even the paladin is arguably a better party face as they also can tank and the party face tends to get punched a lot when negotiations get more aggressive.

The problem is their roleplaying fluff and spelllist/origins being focused on damage makes the players believe that they'd be a better "arcane guy" which frankly the sorcerer is probably the absolute worst at compared to the wizard using Int, warlock invocations being amazing at that roll, and (again) bard have skill proficiencies.

I want to love the class. I really do, it's just that every time I want to roll a sorcerer, I inevitably end up flipping the pages to either the bard or warlock instead, with the rare exception of playing a fire blaster (which I'd still debate with an evoked wizard long and hard) or a "charisma cleric" divine soul. And unfortunately with most parties I seem to find falling into the 3-4 player ranger, being "okay" at being "the magic guy" doesn't cut it.

Of course I think all of this is perhaps symptomatic of a larger problem: the limitations of a class based system or in the case of being relevant to this thread, what is the actual...point of sorcerer being a class? I'd hope we all agree that a sorcerer shouldn't out "wizard" a wizard. The problem is I still think that warlock and sorcerer should have been combined into a single class with the roleplaying focus being built around supernatural beings having a direct personal impact on your character's life rather than presenting the sorcerer as a "master of weaving magic" and giving us a neutered wizard. The player would merely have chosen if it were external (a pact aka the flavor or warlock) or internal (i.e. your grandpappy was seduced by a demon/fae). The cleric's toes arent even stepped on either, as they agree to follow a set of lifestyles and ideals by their supernatural force while the "external" option is like the warlock, a contract at best. Whether invocations, warlock casting, or metamagic would've gotten the axe or have been assimilated into another is to be debated.

 

[Ashrym]

And I would argue from your spell selection that you have just rolled a FIRE sorcerer. See my previous post about how there are two sorcerer specs that are leaps and bounds more effective than any other. Show me how to roll a blaster build that is just as effective focused around the element of acid, or God forbid poison, which several dragon sorcerers are incentivised to do. Heck, there are *multiple* origins focused around lightning despite there not being a single ranged lightning cantrip (a 15ft spell that pulls enemies toward you does NOT count as ranged, nor does blowing all your spell points to make shocking grasp 30ft), and the only lightning damage spell below 3rd level being one of the worst spells in the game without serious houseruling.

For a fire sorc I don't take that many fire spells. Fireball, wall of fire, maybe 1 higher level spell. I don't feel the neex for thematic spells at every level. I need a low, medium, and high attack spell, a defensive spell or two, and whatever else I feel like taking for utility..

Ice is easy. Frostbite and ice knife, sleet storm and ice storm, investiture of ice. That covers the theme well enough for me. Lightning would be lightning and thunder on a storm sorc. Acid I might add poison as a secondary and vice versa; poison is not good against many enemies.

I also don't care if there is a ranged lightning cantrip or not. I would use the metamagic. It makes any touch spell better. I've also built with armor. Human variant is wearing medium armor and shield by 4th level. Bit expensive in 2 ASI's but useful with touch spells and short range.

Shocking grasp isn't the only lightning below 3rd level. Witchbolt is a poor spell but twinned in a higher level slot still performs and can be done relatively early. I admit I don't take it but there is that niche argument. Chromatic orb is whatever type the caster wants and carries the advantage of changing if the situation calls for it.

My last lightning sorc was was a storm sorc in med armor. The campaign made it to 14th level. My spells were: shocking grasp, light, prestdigitation, mage hand, minor illusion, gust; thunderwave, shield, chromatic orb; alter self, enhance ability; lightning bolt, clairvoyance; storm sphere, dimension door; hold monster, creation; chain lightning; plane shift. Twin, careful, heighten. He would thunderwave and knock people back, trigger bonus damage, and use the bonus fly to move for a rinse and repeat by staying close to sweep opponents around if I wanted.

The point is that a person choose to build a character around being close instead of complaining about being close.

Speaking of awful spells, enhance ability and alter self are both contenders as well, albeit the latter is quite effective out of combat despite you arguing that spell slots should not be used for precisely that.

That's not what I was arguing. I was pointing out that using spell slots outside of combat takes away the ability to use those same slots in combat. A wizard does not have more slots for having more spells prepped than the sorc knows so at the levels discussed earlier. That doesn't mean either cannot take out of combat spells. What it means is that the extra out of combat spells prepped become restricted by spell slots anyway.

Alter self is quite useful outside of combat. Enhance ability is easier to swap out because it can be overshadowed by the help action. I keep it for the secondary physical benefits and as a general utility benefit for when the help action isn't possible. It's also twinnable.

Where 2 more spells known does make a big difference is ritual casting, where the wizard can infinitely cast detect magic or identify on the fighter's new magic sword or a magic puzzle all by the party agreeing to take a quick breather or short rest, or read the future using augury for a player or npc, or help the party sleep safer from ambushes by placing an alarm or two while setting up camp. Ritual casting is a bigger deal than most realize, often more so for roleplaying purposes than actual optimization, granted, but it is a noticeable quality of life impact.

Ritual casting is convenient. It's not crucial. It's also not likely a wizard is casting augury. That comes from having a cleric in the typical party. There are 4 ritual casters by default and 3 of them are likely to have 1 of filling a traditional "healer/support" role. Most parties have rituals regardless of the wizard. Any party can add rituals if they think they matter regardless of having a wizard.

Personally, I haven't felt like I missed them when playing classes without them.

The reason why optimizes dont rate the feat highly is because it requires a character to use the respective ability score for ritual casting of the class they pick a list from. Wizards have the best list for spell selection for the feat, but use Intelligence, forcing the sorcerer to need to boost a second ability score for casting that would otherwise be "useless" from an optimization standpoint. All of the charisma options for the feat have like five or six spells that are ritual tagged at most because they were not designed with ritualcasting in mind. The exception being the bard, which has 14 spells all of whom are out of combat utility spells. Granted I personally think that this is quite a hell of a feat for a sorcerer to take and have seen it done no less than twice at my table by various non-ritual casters who are charisma based, but again most optimization guides tend to only focus on combat potency.

If it were that important, optimzers would make arguments for it. Whether INT is useless or not can depend on how prominent the checks are. INT checks are made for information and identifying objects, and finding objects is pretty typical of adventuring. Subclasses of other classes use it. I would fit in the INT if I wanted rituals. Or look for bard rituals -- it's a decent list, as you say.

Again, see my post about Devine Soul and Fire sorcerers being far superior to every other build. Show me a sorcerer who focuses on illusions and enchantments that is as fulfilling to play as an illusionist/enchanter wizard, any bard, trickery cleric, or Fey warlock, especially at a table where your DM allows players to try and "bluff" hiding their spells with a d*** skill check (I can stress how commonly I've seen this done due to previous editions).

Subtle spell. Draconic presence. Heighten spell. Draconic presence is expensive but strong, even if it's later in the game.. Subtle spell automatically hides having cast the spell. Disadvantage on saves is huge with spells like that. I'm not sure where your struggle is in such a sorcerer, tbh. They have plenty to work with here.

This is perhaps the real core of the issue I have with the class of the sorcerer. It falls into the same problem that the bard does: it is the best 5th man in the party. It can fulfill the party face quite well, the problem is that bards and warlocks do it better because the sorcerer spell list and origins force them to be blasters outside of divine soul, which then feels like cleric light (the support). Heck, even the paladin is arguably a better party face as they also can tank and the party face tends to get punched a lot when negotiations get more aggressive.

The problem is their roleplaying fluff and spelllist/origins being focused on damage makes the players believe that they'd be a better "arcane guy" which frankly the sorcerer is probably the absolute worst at compared to the wizard using Int, warlock invocations being amazing at that roll, and (again) bard have skill proficiencies.

There is no requirement to make a blaster sorcerer. They can be good at it but the ability to twin concentration spells or give disadvantage on save-or-suck spells is powerful outside of blasting. You can make your sorcerer with a single damage cantrip to match draconic color and you would have the equivalent of other classes adding caster mod to cantrip damage. Then you have bonus hit points over wizards, the armor bonus without having to use mage armor, and later a concentration-free flight ability.

There are several ways to build a sorcerer. You only trap yourself into a blaster after falling into your own preconceptions. Hopefully I gave you some food for thought.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yeah, that's my real problem with sorcerers. It isn't that there's anything wrong with the class, per se. With the right selection of single-target buffs and debuffs, coupled with Twin Spell, a sorcerer can be a powerhouse. And Subtle Spell on top of being a Cha-primary class makes them very effective in social scenarios as well.

But the way the class presents itself, at least in the PHB, is Blaster McBlasterson. Want to blow stuff up? Play a sorcerer. Except, don't, because you won't actually be very effective in that role. A fiend-pact warlock is far superior when it comes to raw damage output. An evoker is about on par with the sorcerer for damage and is far more versatile.

I don't think it's a bad class, I just wish they would present it in a way that showcases its true strengths.

The Sorcerer is one of the strongest blasters in the game. Your post makes little sense to me.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yeah, I think it's more about feelings then facts honest.

Oh, don't get me wrong, the sorcerer class design has plenty of problems. I'd put the PHB design on my top 3 list of weakest class designs: one subclass is useless and the other is only good if you make the correct build choices, and neither allows any real customization to cater to the multitude of "sorcerer" or "warlock" concepts that people have.

That said, the fact it can be made to output some serious hurt (to an extent few other classes can even compete) is what I'm saying is enough for some, many in fact, but still not all, tables.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Sorcerer is one of the strongest blasters in the game. Your post makes little sense to me.

Better buffer (especially divine soul), the Sorcerer doesn't really stand out vs Invoker and fiend pact Warlock possibly the Light Cleric. That is assuming you are a flame one.

 

[CapnZapp]

Better buffer (especially divine soul), the Sorcerer doesn't really stand out vs Invoker and fiend pact Warlock possibly the Light Cleric. That is assuming you are a flame one.

You're saying "it might not be the very best". He said "it's not very good". Difference.

 

[Bitbrain]

*reads entirety of thread*

Having played a Sorcerer up to 14th level, what they really need isn't more spells. It needs more sorcery points.

Sorcerers aren't good blasters?
*snorts* my very first 5e character was a sorcerer who doubled as both the party buffer and the blaster, and let me tell you, I was frighteningly effective in both roles.

Is there a more difficult learning curve to the Sorcerer compared to the Wizard?
Yes, absolutely. Until I reached 9th level I relied heavily on a Wand of Fireballs whenever I wanted to be the blaster.
Keep in mind that it was my first time ever playing 5e, and that I had unintentionally picked the hardest class to master.
After I advanced to 9th level, I had figured out the class mechanics and didn't need to rely on the wand nearly so much.

The Sorcerer reads like a Specialist?
Maybe I missed something when I first looked over the sorcerer, but I NEVER got the impression that the sorcerer was meant to be a specialist spellcaster.
In fact, my impression has always been that it was meant to be a sort of bare-bones generalist spellcaster, while the wizard was the specialist.
Seriously, the wizard sub-classes found in the Players Handbook are each focused on one of the eight "schools" of magic!

 

[5ekyu]

*reads entirety of thread*

Having played a Sorcerer up to 14th level, what they really need isn't more spells. It needs more sorcery points.

Sorcerers aren't good blasters?
*snorts* my very first 5e character was a sorcerer who doubled as both the party buffer and the blaster, and let me tell you, I was frighteningly effective in both roles.

Is there a more difficult learning curve to the Sorcerer compared to the Wizard?
Yes, absolutely. Until I reached 9th level I relied heavily on a Wand of Fireballs whenever I wanted to be the blaster.
Keep in mind that it was my first time ever playing 5e, and that I had unintentionally picked the hardest class to master.
After I advanced to 9th level, I had figured out the class mechanics and didn't need to rely on the wand nearly so much.

The Sorcerer reads like a Specialist?
Maybe I missed something when I first looked over the sorcerer, but I NEVER got the impression that the sorcerer was meant to be a specialist spellcaster.
In fact, my impression has always been that it was meant to be a sort of bare-bones generalist spellcaster, while the wizard was the specialist.
Seriously, the wizard sub-classes found in the Players Handbook are each focused on one of the eight "schools" of magic!

Yeah - sorc pts are key and few.

Additionally, to me sub-classes tend to work best when they marry the narrative to the class - each taking an aspect of the class and dialing it to 11, as they used to say.

Sorcs dont do this but more tack on some "other stuff" and outside of 3pp dont really do much "helpful" with sorc points imo. Sure, divine soul gets curing boosts and shadow gets their darkness gimmick, butbotherwise meh.

I found the rune sorc in Taldorei to be resfreshing in that regard as it gave a kind of second chance effect from sorc spends.

 

[FrogReaver]

*reads entirety of thread*

Having played a Sorcerer up to 14th level, what they really need isn't more spells. It needs more sorcery points.

Sorcerers aren't good blasters?
*snorts* my very first 5e character was a sorcerer who doubled as both the party buffer and the blaster, and let me tell you, I was frighteningly effective in both roles.

Is there a more difficult learning curve to the Sorcerer compared to the Wizard?
Yes, absolutely. Until I reached 9th level I relied heavily on a Wand of Fireballs whenever I wanted to be the blaster.
Keep in mind that it was my first time ever playing 5e, and that I had unintentionally picked the hardest class to master.
After I advanced to 9th level, I had figured out the class mechanics and didn't need to rely on the wand nearly so much.

The Sorcerer reads like a Specialist?
Maybe I missed something when I first looked over the sorcerer, but I NEVER got the impression that the sorcerer was meant to be a specialist spellcaster.
In fact, my impression has always been that it was meant to be a sort of bare-bones generalist spellcaster, while the wizard was the specialist.
Seriously, the wizard sub-classes found in the Players Handbook are each focused on one of the eight "schools" of magic!

I agree. More sorcery points and more meta magic options is a must IMO

Related to your play experience, a wand of fireballs is a big game changing addition to any caster class. I think your experience without it would have been quite different

 

[Krachek]

IMO the wizard and sorcerer can be as useful to a party. In that sense they are closer.
But the feel and play is quite different.

Sorcerer is a better multi class optimizer. Probably too good.
A wise dm that want to tone down optimization should ban mc for sorcerer, as well as paladin and warlock.