Sorceror in current edition worse than wizard?

[Pax]

Boccobs Book renders the GP cost for scribing new spells largely irrelevant to any Wizard with a Wisdom above 6.

Um, how does Wisdom have ANY affect on ANYthing a Wizard does ... ?

And, scribing costs are 100gp per page, 2 pages per spell level. So, effectively, 200gp times the level of the spell.

I personally prefer Wizards, but that's because I prefer the "hard work and intelligence" approach to the "I can do it just because" approach of the Sorcerer. Wizards are more powerful in most campaigns, as well. You rarely cast all your spells, and even if you do, you can supplement your daily spells with Scrolls, Wands and other items.

Which means you're expending non-self-renewing resources. Yet more financial burden for the Wizard to bear.

 

[greycastle]

damn....so many good points...*btw, we start at level one, thats the ultimate aim...*

One thing i definitly have to agree on is the fact of Wizard versitility.

another thing i have to agree on is Sorceror is in their blood *and it's a good point about them taking succubi into their beds :S* not to mention anything the sorceror really lacks, he can make up for with scrolls and staves...

as to the quesiton Why i bothered to take those few extra non-spellcaster levels? One word: Realsm *if thats a word*

Part of the Background is she had to pretty much sneak away from the House of Dlardrageth, and has been living on the run. She has to learn how to fight, and only a little after she starts more 'adventuring' rather than 'running/hiding' does she realize shes capable of Sorcery/Wizardry...

One of the biggest reasons for me wanting to go a Wizard is my Abilities...their higher...and a little better...
- Get Uncanny dodge, Sneak Attack +2d6, Evasion
- Gets up to level 8 spells

Sorceror
- only Sneak attack +1d6, and evasion
- only knows one level 8 spell, though she can cast it 3 times a day...

one of the reasons i want this is roleplay, and it'll be great i believe...but the reason i want wizard a little more is to add a little bit of Roll'playing...

Any opinons?

 

[LuYangShih]

Um, how does Wisdom have ANY affect on ANYthing a Wizard does ... ?

And, scribing costs are 100gp per page, 2 pages per spell level. So, effectively, 200gp times the level of the spell.

From the SRD:

Blessed Book
This well-made tome is always of small size, typically no more than 12 inches tall, 8 inches wide, and 1 inch thick. All such books are durable, waterproof, bound with iron overlaid with silver, and locked.
The pages of a Blessed Book freely accept spells scribed upon them, and any such book can contain up to forty-five spells of any level. This book is never found as randomly generated treasure with spells already inscribed in it.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, secret page; Market Price: 9,500 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

The Wisdom is a reference to the fact any Wizard would have to be a fool not to have this. I've seen several campaigns where PC Wizards are baffled that not every Wizard uses such books. It simply doesn't make sense to use anything else. If the Wizard crafts the book himself, it costs a mere 4,250 GP, heavily cutting back on the scribing costs that, if you do not use this item, are very prohibitive. Even if you aren't crafting it yourself, the item is vital to keep the scribing costs at a reasonable level.

Which means you're expending non-self-renewing resources. Yet more financial burden for the Wizard to bear.

It's not really as much as you'd think, especially if the Wizard deigns to create the items himself, which he has the feats to spend on, thanks to his bonus feat list. Even if that's not the case, te cost is not prohibitive, and why not spend the GP on this instead of a Bag Of Holding? Wizards don't need to spend money on expensive weapons or armor, so it's very easy to keep them well stocked with wands, scrolls and so on.

Sorcerers are only better than Wizards if you are playing in a "we never say stop we never take a day off" campaign, or a very low magic campaign where items like the Blessed Book are not available. Otherwise, the Wizard is more versatile, has more feats, and is useful in almost any situation, unlike the Sorcerer, who limits himself to only a few useful functions.

A Wizard can divine information, a Wizard can buff, a Wizard can spy and scry, a Wizard can teleport and fly, a Wizard can blast, a Wizard can charm, a Wizard can do just about anything. A Sorcerer can do one, maybe two of those things.

Now, that's not to say the Sorcerer is an unplayable class. They can be very fun, but I simply prefer playing Wizards. YMMV, as always.

 

[LuYangShih]

damn....so many good points...*btw, we start at level one, thats the ultimate aim...*

One thing i definitly have to agree on is the fact of Wizard versitility.

another thing i have to agree on is Sorceror is in their blood *and it's a good point about them taking succubi into their beds :S* not to mention anything the sorceror really lacks, he can make up for with scrolls and staves...

as to the quesiton Why i bothered to take those few extra non-spellcaster levels? One word: Realsm *if thats a word*

Part of the Background is she had to pretty much sneak away from the House of Dlardrageth, and has been living on the run. She has to learn how to fight, and only a little after she starts more 'adventuring' rather than 'running/hiding' does she realize shes capable of Sorcery/Wizardry...

One of the biggest reasons for me wanting to go a Wizard is my Abilities...their higher...and a little better...
- Get Uncanny dodge, Sneak Attack +2d6, Evasion
- Gets up to level 8 spells

Sorceror
- only Sneak attack +1d6, and evasion
- only knows one level 8 spell, though she can cast it 3 times a day...

one of the reasons i want this is roleplay, and it'll be great i believe...but the reason i want wizard a little more is to add a little bit of Roll'playing...

Any opinons?

It's up to you. Both are very powerful choices, and you won't be hamstrung that badly if you supplement your character with a few magic items to help round out her spellcasting abilities.

How do you see your character delving into magic, is the question. Would she take a studious, intellectual approach towards learning magic, or would she be more likely to just develop an innate talent for it?

If you do choose to follow the path of the Sorcerer, I think it would be a good idea to decide where her talent for magic stems from. Whether it be her demonic ancestry, or something else, it really helps to develop the reason for a Sorcerers talent for magic when you are choosing spells. It also really helps make your character unique.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Wisdom is a reference to the fact any Wizard would have to be a fool not to have this. I've seen several campaigns where PC Wizards are baffled that not every Wizard uses such books. It simply doesn't make sense to use anything else. If the Wizard crafts the book himself, it costs a mere 4,250 GP, heavily cutting back on the scribing costs that, if you do not use this item, are very prohibitive. Even if you aren't crafting it yourself, the item is vital to keep the scribing costs at a reasonable level.

As far as I'm concerned, the main advantage of Boccob's Blessed Book is travelling convenience.

The average 20th level wizard, at a rough spreadsheet estimation, can carry his repertoire in two Boccob's Blessed Books, totalling 2 pounds, or in seven ordinary spellbooks, totalling 21 pounds.

As far as I'm concerned, the phrase "freely accepts" refers to the fact that the book is waterproof, but that the pages will accept the ink from the wizard's pen when he scribes spells into it.

To accept that a 9,500gp item can obviate nearly 80,000gp of scribing costs strikes me as ludicrous, and thus the less likely interpretation of the phrase.

-Hyp.

 

[LuYangShih]

As far as I'm concerned, the main advantage of Boccob's Blessed Book is travelling convenience.

The average 20th level wizard, at a rough spreadsheet estimation, can carry his repertoire in two Boccob's Blessed Books, totalling 2 pounds, or in seven ordinary spellbooks, totalling 21 pounds.

As far as I'm concerned, the phrase "freely accepts" refers to the fact that the book is waterproof, but that the pages will accept the ink from the wizard's pen when he scribes spells into it.

To accept that a 9,500gp item can obviate nearly 80,000gp of scribing costs strikes me as ludicrous, and thus the less likely interpretation of the phrase.

-Hyp.

If it's the less likely interpetation, why is it the most widely accepted one? I have never seen anyone argue that is what Boccobs Blessed Book does. It's pretty clear from the text it allows you to scribe spells without the usual cost. If you disagree, fine, but that would be a house rule.

 

[Pax]

The Wisdom is a reference to the fact any Wizard would have to be a fool not to have this. I've seen several campaigns where PC Wizards are baffled that not every Wizard uses such books. It simply doesn't make sense to use anything else. If the Wizard crafts the book himself, it costs a mere 4,250 GP, heavily cutting back on the scribing costs that, if you do not use this item, are very prohibitive. Even if you aren't crafting it yourself, the item is vital to keep the scribing costs at a reasonable level.

And as I observed, "freely accepts" does not have to mean (and IMO doesn't nor should it) "scribing costs are free".

Your car, for example, "freely accepts" various aftermarket products (spoiler, airdam, chromed hubcaps, etc). Does that make them free? No. It simply means it takes no especial expense for YOUR car, as opposed to some OTHER car.

BBB is broken if scribing costs are eliminated for it ... the cost simply is too good. Your very comment, "[...] where PC Wizards are baffled that not every Wizard uses such books", is proof of that.

It's not really as much as you'd think, especially if the Wizard deigns to create the items himself, which he has the feats to spend on, thanks to his bonus feat list. Even if that's not the case, te cost is not prohibitive, and why not spend the GP on this instead of a Bag Of Holding? Wizards don't need to spend money on expensive weapons or armor, so it's very easy to keep them well stocked with wands, scrolls and so on.[/b]

Actually, I was thinking things like Bracers of HEalth +6 (36,000), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000), and a Cloak of Charisma +6(36,000). Improving Hitpoints, AC/initiative/ranged touch attacks, and spell DCs/spells per day, respectively.

Sorcerers are only better than Wizards if you are playing in a "we never say stop we never take a day off" campaign, or a very low magic campaign where items like the Blessed Book are not available. Otherwise, the Wizard is more versatile, has more feats, and is useful in almost any situation, unlike the Sorcerer, who limits himself to only a few useful functions.

You've only seen ineptly-built blaster sorcerors, methinks. I can't make a non-insulting comment that describes what Iwoudl have to conclude, otherwise.

A Wizard can divine information, a Wizard can buff, a Wizard can spy and scry, a Wizard can teleport and fly, a Wizard can blast, a Wizard can charm, a Wizard can do just about anything. A Sorcerer can do one, maybe two of those things.

Actually, a Sorceror can do well MORE than one or two of those things. And he can do them (slightly) more often in a day, than the Wizard, too.

Fly, 3d level. Haste, ditto.
Spy and scry, 4'th level, give the Rogue an Improved Invisibility (and a fly, while you're at it).
Buffs, 2d level (and see Spy-and-scry, too).
Charm, 1st level (and higher for "better" versions).

The funny thing is, I've never seen a WIZARD do ALL of them at once, myself. I see wizards good at buffing, with their spell slots largely full of buffs, with a few off-spells thrown in.

I've seen blaster wizards, of course.

I've seen Intel-and-charm wizards.

And all of them keep mobility spells on hand.

But a blaster-spy-buf-charm wizard?

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Look, for first level spells, Sorcerors have only one must-have: Magic Missile. All else is by preference and/or style. By 20th level, he knows 5 1st level spells.

For second level, two spells come in -- Glitterdust (too darned useful overall to skip), and Eagle's Splendor. Any other buffs he wants or needs, let the Wizard handle, or buy some wands. Knows 5 of these by 20th, too.

At third level, there're better choices than fireball of course. But, Haste and Fly, two good choices. That leaves two more choices, by 20th level.

Fourth level, Improved invisibility, and (form Savage Species) Improved Blindsight. Again, two choices open, at 20th level.

...

You see the pattern, I hope.

Now consider; a sorceror's known spells of 1st to 9th level will be 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3.

A Wizards will be 5/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 ... with extra 1st level spells based on his Intelligence bonus at 1st level, and with whatever he buys and scribes as well (meaning, more than that costs GP ...).

Now, that's not to say the Sorcerer is an unplayable class. They can be very fun, but I simply prefer playing Wizards. YMMV, as always.

You can prefer Wizards all you want, but don't make the -mistake- of thinking a Wizard is superior to a Sorceror; don't make the mistake of thinking that a properly-adjudicated Wizard will even KNOW that many spells more than a Sorceror; the wizard -maybe- knows 50% more spells than the sorceror (whilethe sorceror spends that money on scrolls and wands of the spells he wants, but lacks -- and maybe on an extra permanent toy, as well).

 

[Hypersmurf]

If it's the less likely interpetation, why is it the most widely accepted one?

Because people who play wizards would rather spend their money on toys than new spells, so they can claim superiority over sorcerers

I have never seen anyone argue that is what Boccobs Blessed Book does. It's pretty clear from the text it allows you to scribe spells without the usual cost. If you disagree, fine, but that would be a house rule.

No, it's an interpretation. A house rule is where you take an unambiguous rule and change it. Where the rule is ambiguous - and the fact that two people on this thread read "freely accepts" differently to you says it's ambiguous - neither way is a house rule. The disagreement is over what the rule is, not over what the rule should be.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

If it's the less likely interpetation, why is it the most widely accepted one? I have never seen anyone argue that is what Boccobs Blessed Book does. It's pretty clear from the text it allows you to scribe spells without the usual cost. If you disagree, fine, but that would be a house rule.

So if two billion people in China believe a thing, it's right?

I guess that makes communism "right" and capitalism "wrong", hmm?

Popularity != correctness.

BBB "Freely accepts", fine.

But OUTSIDE the BBB, you still have to buy the pen and ink. The BBB doesn't provide that.

And THAT is what you spend the money on -- pens and inks, of sufficient quality and appropriate formula for scribing spells (which means, not NORMAL pens, nor NORMAL ink).

...

For the record, the example I gave? In fact, that character was posted to the Rogue's Gallery ... along with an equal-level Sorceror. They can be found here: Ethen and Koras

Here's the spellbook entry for the Wizard:

[color=white]SPELLBOOK
(Total # of pages: 527pp; 100pp per book, leaves 163pp unused)
(Total # of spells: 53, plus 25 cantrips = 78)

Level 0 (25 spells)
  all PHB, MoF, and T&B cantrips
Level 1 (9 spells)
  Negative Energy Ray
  Spirit Worm
  Chill Touch
  Ray of Enfeeblement
  Magic Missile
  True Strike
  Know Protections
  Alarm
  Shield
Level 2 (6 spells)
  Spectral Hand
  Death Armor
  Dessicating Bubble
  Gedlee's Electric Loop
  See Invisible
  Glitterdust
  Protection from Arrows
Level 3 (7 spells)
  Vampiric Touch
  Blacklight
  Shatterfloor
  Sonorous Hum
  Arcane Sight
  Reverse Arrows
Level 4 (5 spells)
  Enervation
  Wall of Fire
  Thunderlance
  Fireshield
  Improved Blindsight
Level 5 (7 spells)
  Spirit Wall
  Grimwald's Greymantle
  Bigby's Interposing Hand
  Wall of Limbs
  Wall of Stone
  Permanency
  Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt
Level 6 (5 spells)
  Circle of Death
  Acid Storm
  Cacophonic Shield
  Biby's Forceful Hand
  Energy Transformation Field
Level 7 (5 spells)
  Finger of Death
  Zajimarn's Ice Claw Prison
  Bigby's Grasping Hand
  Teleport Without Error
  Mass Teleport
Level 8 (4 spells)
  Horrid Wilting
  Chain Contingency
  Zajimarn's Field of Icy Razors
  Prismatic Wall
Level 9 (5 spells)
  Energy Drain
  Zajimarn's Avalanche
  Wish
  Mordenkainen's Disjunction
  Vile Death[/color]

Hmm, 78 spells, including cantrips. Versys 43 spells (including cantrips) for a sorceror ... wow, 35 extra spells (16 of them cantrips).

Discounting the cantrips, it's 53 to 34. Wow, 19 extra spells (about 50% more than the Sorceror, by the way, and Koras is an Epic wizard with 2.1 million gp to play with, who bought literally every spell that interested his necromancy-specialised little self -- AND got 8 of them FREE, for advancing to Wizard(24) ...!) -- some of which (i.e. Vile Death -- for a Lich, cast on himself, heh) are permanent, and I'd hope to NEVER have to cast them again, but wouldn't want to have to go without, if they ever DID get dispelled.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Just as an aside...

"How much did those shoes cost you?"
"They didn't - I got them freely!"

The adverb "freely" does not usually refer to the "at no charge" meaning of "free". In fact, to use it that way sounds downright weird.

"Freely" as an adverb means "easily", "without restraint or compulsion", "gratuitously", "without difficulty", "of one's own will".

"Only a member of the Order may freely pass these gates."
"He offered his testimony freely, without need for the Sergeant's traditional 'persuasion'."
"The wine flowed freely that night."
"The spells didn't cost him anything, because he scribed them freely."

Wait, that last one sounds wrong.

-Hyp.