Sorceror in current edition worse than wizard?

By the by, a FULL reserve spellbook setup for the above would cost (527 x 100gp) 52,700gp, plus the spellbooks themselves -- which aren't likely to be cheap, if you're not using BBB's; less-portable but more-defended books cna be made, readily, with the MoF rules for unusual spellbooks; his hit, IIRC, 6,320gp per, at 100 pages each ... before I decided to accept the cheesy way out, and bought BBB's ... and abused that common (but IMO wrong) interpretation of the BBB's ability to "Freely accept" spells.

52,700 + 6x6,320gp = 90,620gp.

That's a lot of toys for the sorceror to play with, that the Wizard shouldn't be getting ... n'est-ce pas?
 

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My opinion is that, were it not for Boccobs Blessed Book, Wizard scribing costs would be far too prohibitive. As you say, the Wizard will only have a few more spells than the Sorcerer, and will be hamstrung because he spent most of his gold attaining those spells, while the Sorcerer was free to spend it on other magical gear.

Boccobs Blessed Book is brought up in almost any discussion regarding the balance between Sorcerers and Wizards. In all of those discussions, I haven't even seen one person disagree that Boccobs Blessed Book does not allow free scribing of spells.

Just because a majority of people believe something doesn't mean it's right, but if there was a question in the FAQ for every single disagreement made about the rules, it's length would be far too great. The most obvious (and therefore the most likely) meaning of the paragraph about Boccobs Blessed Book indicates that you are able to scribe spells freely (IE at no cost).

Unless they change this in the FAQ, which I doubt they will do as almost no one disagrees about the interpetation of the paragraph, I am going to assume the rules work as stated. You can wrangle about the meaning of the paragraph as you wish, but to me at least, the statement is clear enough.


PS

Freely can mean just that, freely.

"The Trolls would would charge travelers 100 GP if they wished to cross the bridge, but Ogres were allowed to pass freely."
 

LuYangShih said:
My opinion is that, were it not for Boccobs Blessed Book, Wizard scribing costs would be far too prohibitive. As you say, the Wizard will only have a few more spells than the Sorcerer, and will be hamstrung because he spent most of his gold attaining those spells, while the Sorcerer was free to spend it on other magical gear.

Yet, here you sit, insisting the Wizard will have every spell under the sun, which makes the wizard far superior to the Sorceror ...

... yet you balk, when the balancing cost of having all those spells is pointed out to you.

Boccobs Blessed Book is brought up in almost any discussion regarding the balance between Sorcerers and Wizards. In all of those discussions, I haven't even seen one person disagree that Boccobs Blessed Book does not allow free scribing of spells.

Not true anymore.

And I daresay, tonight is not the first time I've seen objections raised in regards to the whole "Free to scribe" issue, either.

Just because a majority of people believe something doesn't mean it's right, but if there was a question in the FAQ for every single disagreement made about the rules, it's length would be far too great. The most obvious (and therefore the most likely) meaning of the paragraph about Boccobs Blessed Book indicates that you are able to scribe spells freely (IE at no cost).

Fine, you can freely scribe scrolls. But "Freely scribe" != "scribe for free" (see Hyp's post above).

Besides, scribing costs are described as buying the pens and inks needed. You sitll have to pay thos ...and wow, they cost 200gp per level of the spell. How convenient!


Unless they change this in the FAQ, which I doubt they will do as almost no one disagrees about the interpetation of the paragraph, I am going to assume the rules work as stated. You can wrangle about the meaning of the paragraph as you wish, but to me at least, the statement is clear enough.

Fine, assume that.

The problem is not with how the rules are stated, the problem is how the stated rules are interpreted[/quote]. Don't even TRY and paint this as an issue of Hyp or I wanting to CHANGE the rule.

We simply UNDERSTAND it differently than you do.


PS

Freely can mean just that, freely.

"The Trolls would would charge travelers 100 GP if they wished to cross the bridge, but Ogres were allowed to pass freely."

Exceedingly bad grammar, to imply that "pass freely" refers to the FEE. It means the Trolls choose not to IMPEDE the Ogres (the Ogres may have paid in advance, for example).


From the Mirriam-Webster online:

Code:
[color=white]Main Entry: free·ly 
Pronunciation: 'frE-lE
Function: adverb
Date: before 12th century
: in a free manner: as a : of one's own accord <left home freely>
b : with freedom from external control <a freely elected
government> c : without restraint or reservation <spent freely on
clothes> d : without hindrance <a gate swinging freely>
<currencies are freely convertible> e : not strictly following a
model, convention, or rule <freely translated> [/color]

Show me where in there it mentions ANY even remotely economic, financial, mercantile, or related meaning.

Clearly, "freely accepts" means:

  • spells may be scribed without restraint or reservation
  • spells may be scribed without hindrance

That is, it means one of the above, if you can agree we're all speaking English ...
 
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Well, in the dictionary I just looked the word up in, it also contained: without, or not subject to, a charge or payment. --- adv. So I clearly disagree with you on the proper use of the word. Free, and freely, clearly can apply to material and economic costs.

I can also clearly see we will do little here but eventually agree to disagree, so why don't we save the endless arguments and do that now? In my opinion, Boccobs Blessed Book allows scribing spells with no cost. I am content in the knowledge that will be true in 90% of the campaigns I play in, at least.

You disagree, and I accept that. I don't think that's how the rules are meant to be read, but you obviously do. Until this issue is resolved in the FAQ, or one of the former WoTC employees tells us what the intent of Boccobs Blessed Book is, we'll have to just leave it at that.
 

I don't know what dictionary you used, but it's clearly substandard. 8P

The only reason I didn't cite the OED Online, is, I don't care to spend the $300 annual access fee.
 

My opinion is that, were it not for Boccobs Blessed Book, Wizard scribing costs would be far too prohibitive.

That's the whole point.

Consequences, not restrictions.

A Sorcerer can never, by the Core Rules, know extra spells. By expanded rules, he can know some small number more by expending precious feats.

A wizard has more feats anyway, but he can know as many spells as he can get access to... if he's willing to pay for them.

A wizard can always make more money. A sorcerer can never, essentially, learn more spells.

The wizard and sorcerer classes are, in my opinion, relatively well-balanced. If you remove scribing costs, the balance swings in favour of the wizard.

-Hyp.
 
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um...call me selfish, ignornat, and mean....

but this thread was Not meant to be about Boccobs Blessed book....quite seriously....

sure it's interesting information, but wouldn't opening a new thread with that exact topic be more useful?

Not to mention, the cahracter i'm playing is in FR not Greyhawk...

still, back to the people that were on topic...

if i go ahead with the Sorcery aspect i'll definitly make it come from my demon heritage...
but i've always liked wizards, and even the spontaneous aspect of sorcerors doesnt' appeal to me that much...lacking all those spells really hits home....

i've created two character sheets already, and now i'm jsut looking over the finer points...wizard seems to be coming out in front, but i almost want a in-game reason as to why i could turn to wizardry over sorcery *one idea comes from the book Magehound, and Floodgate by Elaine Cunningham, where the character Tzigone, a Rogue/sorceror, later takes up an apprenticeship with a wizard, and starts to learn the ways of a wizard...maybe having magic in the blood, is a reason to take up much more 'formal' learning of magic...*

Edit: btw, NO offence is intended by this post, and i onyl wished to comment. Still thank you all very much with almost everything you've said "though why the Boccob thing was brought up still mystifies me"
 
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greycastle said:
um...call me selfish, ignornat, and mean....

but this thread was Not meant to be about Boccobs Blessed book....quite seriously....

sure it's interesting information, but wouldn't opening a new thread with that exact topic be more useful?

Not to mention, the cahracter i'm playing is in FR not Greyhawk...

Actually, FR, Greyhawk, or elsewhere -- Boccob's Blessed Book exists (it's a core item).

If you want to insist that Greyhawk-originated stuff can;t go to the FR, then you lose all the Bigby spells, all the Mordenkainen spells, the Tenser spells, heck ... you ose allof D&D.

As for the BBB issue -- sorry, but it did get brought up here, as a result of the discussion in general. Conversations have a way of doing that ... picking their OWN direction, and going there.

still, back to the people that were on topic...

if i go ahead with the Sorcery aspect i'll definitly make it come from my demon heritage...
but i've always liked wizards, and even the spontaneous aspect of sorcerors doesnt' appeal to me that much...lacking all those spells really hits home....

As I've said (multiple times now) ... across their entire career, Sorcerors get all of (on average) NINE spells fewer than Wizards, aside from spells the Wizard buys (actually, it's 7 + the wizards 1st-level INT mod).
 

btw, i feel i was a bit harsh about that Boccob Book thing...

i apologize to everyone, i might have offended...

not to mention i DIDn't realise it was a core item :S and actually never really thought about Mordenkain, Bigby, or Tenser...
 


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