Sorceror in current edition worse than wizard?

[Pax]

And somethign to keep inmind about wether or not Monte's current acceptance of "no cost to scribe" has much bearing on the ORIGINAL intent he might have had -- he helped with Sword and Fist.

You know, the book that listed the Halfling Outrider?

The class with no BAB entry ... ?

Think about it. Just because your name's in a game book, doesn't make you a God or anything (well, at least, not unless your name is in a book dedicated to deities, and is directly above a Stat Block, heh).

 

[karateka]

I would go wizard any day. The sorcerer does not have a lot more casts than a wizard and a wand could always allow you to reduce the number of spells handicap.

 

[greycastle]

Well, with my human wizard i was actually always considering multiclassing to a Guild Wizard, and i guess since the region i chose is Waterdeep (where she spent her last 3 years), it could actually be done. thanks
Mage of the Arcane order seems a little too overpowered, and i almost feel as if it were cheating/splat...spellpool III at level 7???
didn't check the pre-reqs so can't say for certain.

Btw, there IS an ECL of +3 for my character (has damage reduction 10/+1), but i must stress again !! WHERE STARTING LEVEL 1, not level 20 !!
we simply write up our ultimate goal we wish to acheive (btw, i took DR so most normal weapons can't kill me with my measly 6 hp. We however use a broken down system, which means when they do reach level 20, i will only be 17, but when they reach level 3, i'll be level 2...level 5/level 3, level 6/level 3, and after that it goes on normally...it's to let the outsider not die 100%, because wish and miracle spells are hard to come by...)

Elder Basilish, great points, however
- Rogue is taken at level one for the INSANE number of skill points (44)
- Arcane trickster is a good class....except for the fact i dislike it so much it's not even worth saying...]
- and i'm almost positive i'm sticking with wizard.

However, it's a very good point about the need for level 8-9 spells (which infact with 15 levels of wizard, you get level 8...but you need 17 to get level 9...). I however don't want to ditch Rogue/Fighter completely...one thing i really wanted was access to level 8 spells, and that power...reason i stopped my original idea of Rogue3/Fighter2/Guild Thief5/Wizard5/GuildWizard5....:S

I've considered possibly going Rogue1/Fighter1/Wizard8/GuildWizard10 (because it's better than Rogue2(1)/Fighter1(2)/Wizard8/GW10, same bab, better saves)...but i'm not to sure...we actually have another wizard in the party....a pure human all the way wizard....

Anymore advice?

 

[Pax]

Greycastle, in the Realms, as either Wizard or Sorceror ... if you can manage it, STRONGLY consider Archmage.

+6 Spell Power is a BIG benefit, even if it costs you a few spells-per-day.

Mastery of Counterspelling, with Improved and Reactive counterspell piled on, can be powerful.

And for the elemental blaster-mage types, Mastery of Elemetns is a very attractive consideration (slightly moreso for Wizards than Sorcerors, IMO).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Elder Basilish, great points, however
- Rogue is taken at level one for the INSANE number of skill points (44)
- Arcane trickster is a good class....except for the fact i dislike it so much it's not even worth saying...]
- and i'm almost positive i'm sticking with wizard.

Well, it seems to me then that you need to decide whether you're a wizard with a few extra skill points that will be nice at level 1 and useless by level 6 or a rogue who will learn to cast spells. If you're a wizard, then forget the multiclassing (I'd advise against this route as well because you've got an ECL--the human wizard would be casting fireball 4/day (if an evoker) by the time you could cast 2nd level spells (6th level even if you don't multi-class); if you multiclass at all, the human wizard will be casting phantasmal killer and improved invisibility by the time you're casting invisibility. If spells are your primary contribution to the party, you might as well stay at home.

However, it's a very good point about the need for level 8-9 spells (which infact with 15 levels of wizard, you get level 8...but you need 17 to get level 9...). I however don't want to ditch Rogue/Fighter completely...one thing i really wanted was access to level 8 spells, and that power...reason i stopped my original idea of Rogue3/Fighter2/Guild Thief5/Wizard5/GuildWizard5....:S

Actually, this is probably a better plan. As a character who's primarily a wizard, you'll always be second rate (or even third or fourth rate if you combine extensive multiclassing and an ECL). As a character who's primarily a rogue or a fighter, the ECL doesn't have the same effect.

I would recommend something like Rogue 8/Fighter 2/Wizard 3/Duelist 2/Guild Thief 5. You still get some magic--and Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, Knock, Alter Self, and Invisibility will give you capabilities you wouldn't otherwise have--and which will be useful in the game. Shield, Expeditious Retreat, and Mage Armor will also be helpful. However, your role in the party would be "rogue"--and that's a role that can be filled by a heavily multiclassed character with an ECL. At low levels, the DR will be very helpful when you go into combat for sneak attacks; at high levels the combination of SR, evasion, and a good touch AC will mean that you are less vulnerable to magic than most rogues. Precise Strike the wizard spells, and the fighter feats will make up for the difference between you and a single classed rogue in sneak attack damage and spells like Invisbility can substitute for some of the skill points you lose out on.

I've considered possibly going Rogue1/Fighter1/Wizard8/GuildWizard10 (because it's better than Rogue2(1)/Fighter1(2)/Wizard8/GW10, same bab, better saves)...but i'm not to sure...we actually have another wizard in the party....a pure human all the way wizard....

Knowing that you've got a +3 ECL and are starting at first level really changes matters. If you multiclass at all, you can forget about ever being an effective spellcaster of any kind. You'll be closest to effectiveness at ECL 23 but note that the pure human wizard is casting epic spells before you're casting 9th level spells if you take as even 1 level that doesn't give full spellcasting progression.

Now the skill points for starting with a level of rogue are tempting but by level 4 they'll only make you a second rate rogue and prevent you from even being a second rate wizard. By level 10, you might as well not have bothered (+4 spot, listen, disable device, etc won't help by then). The same is true for the fighter level. Only take it if you actually want to play a melee combatant. If it represents 3 extra hit points and +2 fort save, take toughness and Great Fortitude instead. (I know toughness sucks but you'd be better off). However, I have serious doubts about the possibility of making an effective fighter/wizard out of any ECL race. It's very difficult even with a human. And it minimizes your ECL advantages while maximizing the disadvantages(fighter/wizards have an easy time getting a high AC but a hard time hitting (and tend not to hit hard when they do hit); a big part of the Fey'ri advantage is the DR which is irrelevant if you don't get hit and your attack bonus and spellcasting ability (which is what enables you to make up that deficiency) both suffer from the ECL).

I say go for the rogue. If you want levels of wizard, you can take a few without killing the character. (If you do it right, they might even make the character better). If you want fighter levels, you can take a few without making her useless. (Again, if she's a combat rogue, they might even make her better).

 

[greycastle]

hmmm....i really could go all the way rogue/fighter....maybe Rogue8/Fighter4 would be a good start....with Guild Theif Prestige class....honestly, i'm really not sure...

 

[melkoriii]

If it's the less likely interpetation, why is it the most widely accepted one? I have never seen anyone argue that is what Boccobs Blessed Book does. It's pretty clear from the text it allows you to scribe spells without the usual cost. If you disagree, fine, but that would be a house rule.

Clear?!?

It says nothing of a sort.

How do you get no cost out of "freely accsepts"?

If it was to script spells at no cost they would have said at no cost.

What morons.

 

[bret]

hmmm....i really could go all the way rogue/fighter....maybe Rogue8/Fighter4 would be a good start....with Guild Theif Prestige class....honestly, i'm really not sure...

Rogue/Fighter all the way is a very strong combination. The other one to look at is Rogue/Barbarian for the Uncanny Dodge or Rogue/Ranger for the skill synergy. Ranger has many of the same skills as the Rogue, so you don't fall as far behind in Move Silently, Hide, Spot, and Listen.

Max out your Use Magic Device skill and you will still be able to use scrolls, wands, etc. Think about using this as 'getting in touch with your magical heritage'.

 

[avin]

i like sorcerers and i don't like wizards. i never liked wizards. however, if you want to know which is *better* for high levels choose the wizards .... epic sorcerers just sux... unfortunately...

 

[Pax]

i like sorcerers and i don't like wizards. i never liked wizards. however, if you want to know which is *better* for high levels choose the wizards .... epic sorcerers just sux... unfortunately...

Oh? May I ask what it is that makes Wizards superior to Sorcerors, at epic levels? IMO the two are about the same ... as they should be.

And, actually, for a Sorceror, once you've gotten to Sorceror (20), multiclassing to non-pellcasting classes becomes more viable, because ALL you lose is caster level (not spell levels, not spells known, etc, etc). For an Evil sorceror, if you planned ahead and got the needed feats, 2 levels of Blackguard is wonderful ... your Charisma is probably so high, the boost to your saves may approach TWENTY, by 25th level (total).

Levels 21+ are also a great time for a sorceror to take Dragon Disciple. That way, you actually DO get more spellcasting (though not caster levels).

For a Sorceror(8)/Incantatrix(10)/Archmage(5)/Blackguard(2), as a 25th level character, would possibly be VERY effective.

If you're good aligned, of course, there's always Paladin instead of blackguard.