Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Well, yes, it is... but it doesn't exactly resolve anything, does it?
-Hyp.
Sorceror in current edition worse than wizard?
- Thread starter greycastle
- Start date
Well, yes, it is... but it doesn't exactly resolve anything, does it?
-Hyp.
Spatzimaus
First Post
I'm going to have to take issue with the "demolisher, but little else" description of the Sorcerer in the first post, and in some subsequent ones. I played a Sorcerer for a long time, and they're far more than that.
Taking the Shadow magic spells covers a lot of the Sorcerers low-level flexibility problems, but even that's not important; a well-designed Sorcerer has at least one utility spell at every level. Look at level 3 spells, for example; everyone knows to take some combination of Haste, Fly, Dispel Magic, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt, right? But, sacrifice one of those for something like Tongues, Protection from Elements, or Clairvoyance, and you'll be far more useful to the party, because these are spells too specific for the other casters to memorize, but that can be really useful in many situations.
In fact, my Sorcerer had almost no damage spells, since he was all about nondamaging attack spells and utility, leaving the blasting to the Wizard of the group. The point is, though, anyone who designs a Sorcerer solely around throwing tons of Fireballs is really underutilizing the main advantage of the Sorcerer, their spellcasting flexibility.
And IMC we're with these other guys on the BBB train: it shouldn't make scribing free. Note the "shouldn't", not "doesn't"; it's a terrible idea for game balance to remove scribing costs, since it removes one of the biggest balance features for a class altogether, but the rules are vague.
Now, the problem here is, if you still have to pay per Boccob's page, how many pages does it have? How many pages does each spell take? All it says is "45 spells of any level", not "45 pages and 1 spell per page".
So, I see three options:
A> BBB has 45 pages, and each spell takes 1 page
B> BBB has 100 pages like a standard spellbook, and each spell takes 2 pages, with 10 pages unusable for spells (this one isn't really an interpretation, it's more of "nice house rule I've seen")
C> Even with a BBB you still use 2 pages per spell level, the book has an infinite number of pages, but can only hold 45 spells.
Either A or B still leave it much cheaper to scribe than a standard spellbook.
C is the same cost as usual (you're only saving on convenience, not having to haul around a half-dozen books). Personally I'd go with B for balance purposes.
Taking the Shadow magic spells covers a lot of the Sorcerers low-level flexibility problems, but even that's not important; a well-designed Sorcerer has at least one utility spell at every level. Look at level 3 spells, for example; everyone knows to take some combination of Haste, Fly, Dispel Magic, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt, right? But, sacrifice one of those for something like Tongues, Protection from Elements, or Clairvoyance, and you'll be far more useful to the party, because these are spells too specific for the other casters to memorize, but that can be really useful in many situations.
In fact, my Sorcerer had almost no damage spells, since he was all about nondamaging attack spells and utility, leaving the blasting to the Wizard of the group. The point is, though, anyone who designs a Sorcerer solely around throwing tons of Fireballs is really underutilizing the main advantage of the Sorcerer, their spellcasting flexibility.
And IMC we're with these other guys on the BBB train: it shouldn't make scribing free. Note the "shouldn't", not "doesn't"; it's a terrible idea for game balance to remove scribing costs, since it removes one of the biggest balance features for a class altogether, but the rules are vague.
Now, the problem here is, if you still have to pay per Boccob's page, how many pages does it have? How many pages does each spell take? All it says is "45 spells of any level", not "45 pages and 1 spell per page".
So, I see three options:
A> BBB has 45 pages, and each spell takes 1 page
B> BBB has 100 pages like a standard spellbook, and each spell takes 2 pages, with 10 pages unusable for spells (this one isn't really an interpretation, it's more of "nice house rule I've seen")
C> Even with a BBB you still use 2 pages per spell level, the book has an infinite number of pages, but can only hold 45 spells.
Either A or B still leave it much cheaper to scribe than a standard spellbook.
C is the same cost as usual (you're only saving on convenience, not having to haul around a half-dozen books). Personally I'd go with B for balance purposes.
The Souljourner
First Post
Pax said:
Yes yesm ASIDE from the ones a wizard buys! ..or finds in his slain enemies' spellbooks... as long as your DM doesn't cheese you out of spellbooks, you should be able to find pretty much any spell whatsoever.
Let's see... assume our wizard wants 5 extra 6th-9th level spells. To scribe, that's 6,000 + 7,000 + 8,000 + 9,000 = 30,000gp. Now, let's assume the DM is a cheesy bastard and you *never* find a spellbook with any of these spells you want, so you have to go buy scrolls. 6th level scrolls are 1650 * 5 = 8250, 7th level scrolls are 2275 * 5 = 11375, 8th are 3,000 * 5 = 15,000, 9th are 3825 * 5 = 19125
Add all this up: 83,750gp.
At 20th level, that's about 11% of your total wealth. Does anyone REALLY think that the one or maybe two magic items the sorcerer could get for 83k are actually going to make up for missing 20 spells? That's a crapload of stuff the wizard can do that the sorcerer cannot.
I don't give a flying fudge about BBB. Any 20th level party has a plethora of portable holes, heward's handy haversacks, and bags of holding, and as I've said, the monetary cost isn't all that prohibitive, even when you buy the scrolls as well.
So.. the wizard now has 6 extra spells of each level 6-9, plus 4 more (from levelling up at 19th and 20th) that can be any level. That's a total of 28 more spells known from the most cast levels... total count: Wizard - 40, Sorcerer - 12. And those are just the most expensive levels.
You could probably buy and scribe 5 spells from each lower level for another 30,000gp (I'm just guessing, I don't feel like doing the math).
The real question is, is it worth being able to cast 7 9th level spells to the wizard's 5, and yet knowing less than a third the number of spells the wizard does? I can't answer that for you, but I can answer it for me. Wizards rock.
-The Souljourner
greycastle said:
Is there some reason you didn't consider Prestige Classes?
Given what you've said in other posts, it is pretty obvious that Sorcerer better fits your history while Wizard better fits your style. Split the difference.
Take either Mage of the Arcane Order (Tome & Blood) or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep (Magic of Faerun) in order to get access to a Spellpool. Personally, I think the Mage of the Arcane Order is a little bit better.
This allows you to take a Sorcerer but still get flexibility by pulling spells you don't know from the Spellpool. You will still be restricted in your high level spells, but your lower level spells can be called for.
If I were doing the character, it is likely I would take the Sorcerer because I don't have any experience running a sorcerer yet. I would like to give it a try, although I must admit that jumping into it at that high a level is a bit intimidating.
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Elder-Basilisk
First Post
The multi-classing may be good for "role-playing" but unless you're planning to actually DO something with the abilities from those classes, there's no point in asking advice whether you should play a wizard or a sorceror. Either way, as a 20th level character (and isn't there an ECL for Fey-ri so you'd be 21st or 22nd level) with the spellcasting ability of a 15th or 16th level character, you will be weak and anemic no matter what.
Uncanny Dodge is nice but it doesn't match up to 9th level spells. (Foresight is better). +2d6 sneak attack is completely insignificant compared to the difference between casting Meteor Swarm and Horrid Wilting and castind Delayed Blast Fireball or Prismatic Spray.
Two fighter feats, weapon and armor proficiencies, an extra 7hp, +2 fort saves, and +1 BAB doesn't make up for the difference between 7th and 8th (or 9th) level spells either.
If you want to run a character in a 20th level game that isn't nerfed down to the level of your character, you'll either need to:
1. Design the character to fit a multi-classed concept.
or
2. Cut the multi-classing down to one or two levels at most. (And that will still dramatically weaken the character).
As it is, you're going to be shown up by any decently designed cohort a party member brings.
I would suggest option 1. If you want to be a fighting wizard, design your character that way. Drop the rogue levels, pick feats that have good synergy with your wizard abilities (Expert Tactician to go with Blink or Improved Invisibility, Extend and Persistent Spell to go with buffs, Still spell to let you cast spells while in armor or Iron Bodied). Then pick your spells from ones that have synergy for a fighting wizard: Shield, Blink, Displacement, Haste, Improved Invisibility, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, Polymorph Self, Iron Body, Tenser's Transformation, etc. (I'd suggest Ftr 1/Wizard or sorceror 15/Spellsword 4 or Ftr 2/Wiz or Sor 18 (if you go with Still Spell)) If you want to be a rogue/wizard, drop the fighter levels and go either Rog 4/Wiz (or sorceror) 6/Arcane Trickster 10) or Rog 3/Wiz (or Sor) 17. Load up on spells and abilities that have good synergy with your rogue abilities. Buy up search and disable device cross class with wizard skill points (You won't be disarming anything at 20th level with 7 ranks of disable device--you need something a lot more like 23 ranks). If you go Arcane Trickster, you'll have a decent sneak attack so load up on ray spells like the orbs, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, etc. If not, you won't be doing much with your sneak attack, so you'll have to pretend you're an ordinary wizard or sorceror except when it comes to traps, surprise rounds (uncanny dodge) and reflex saves (evasion).
Is that "realistic?" Sure. It may not fit the backstory you've worked up so far, but small changes in the backstory would fix that. She's always had strange things happen around her. When she sneaked away from the House and in the times when she was running and hiding, she found that she was so good at hiding that people would walk right by her in a corridor in broad daylight (although she didn't know it, she had turned invisible). When it really mattered, she found that horses had trouble keeping up with her (Expeditious retreat). It was only when she arrived on the surface and began adventuring that she realized that what she was doing instinctively was what others called "magic." There. Now she doesn't need any rogue levels at all in order for the backstory to make sense. A single fighter level could explain her proficiencies (and anyone with decent stats and proficiencies who instinctively uses the Shield spell--and maybe True Strike--is going to seem like they're a decent fighter at low levels).
Uncanny Dodge is nice but it doesn't match up to 9th level spells. (Foresight is better). +2d6 sneak attack is completely insignificant compared to the difference between casting Meteor Swarm and Horrid Wilting and castind Delayed Blast Fireball or Prismatic Spray.
Two fighter feats, weapon and armor proficiencies, an extra 7hp, +2 fort saves, and +1 BAB doesn't make up for the difference between 7th and 8th (or 9th) level spells either.
If you want to run a character in a 20th level game that isn't nerfed down to the level of your character, you'll either need to:
1. Design the character to fit a multi-classed concept.
or
2. Cut the multi-classing down to one or two levels at most. (And that will still dramatically weaken the character).
As it is, you're going to be shown up by any decently designed cohort a party member brings.
I would suggest option 1. If you want to be a fighting wizard, design your character that way. Drop the rogue levels, pick feats that have good synergy with your wizard abilities (Expert Tactician to go with Blink or Improved Invisibility, Extend and Persistent Spell to go with buffs, Still spell to let you cast spells while in armor or Iron Bodied). Then pick your spells from ones that have synergy for a fighting wizard: Shield, Blink, Displacement, Haste, Improved Invisibility, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, Polymorph Self, Iron Body, Tenser's Transformation, etc. (I'd suggest Ftr 1/Wizard or sorceror 15/Spellsword 4 or Ftr 2/Wiz or Sor 18 (if you go with Still Spell)) If you want to be a rogue/wizard, drop the fighter levels and go either Rog 4/Wiz (or sorceror) 6/Arcane Trickster 10) or Rog 3/Wiz (or Sor) 17. Load up on spells and abilities that have good synergy with your rogue abilities. Buy up search and disable device cross class with wizard skill points (You won't be disarming anything at 20th level with 7 ranks of disable device--you need something a lot more like 23 ranks). If you go Arcane Trickster, you'll have a decent sneak attack so load up on ray spells like the orbs, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, etc. If not, you won't be doing much with your sneak attack, so you'll have to pretend you're an ordinary wizard or sorceror except when it comes to traps, surprise rounds (uncanny dodge) and reflex saves (evasion).
Is that "realistic?" Sure. It may not fit the backstory you've worked up so far, but small changes in the backstory would fix that. She's always had strange things happen around her. When she sneaked away from the House and in the times when she was running and hiding, she found that she was so good at hiding that people would walk right by her in a corridor in broad daylight (although she didn't know it, she had turned invisible). When it really mattered, she found that horses had trouble keeping up with her (Expeditious retreat). It was only when she arrived on the surface and began adventuring that she realized that what she was doing instinctively was what others called "magic." There. Now she doesn't need any rogue levels at all in order for the backstory to make sense. A single fighter level could explain her proficiencies (and anyone with decent stats and proficiencies who instinctively uses the Shield spell--and maybe True Strike--is going to seem like they're a decent fighter at low levels).
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Boccob's Blessed Book
In my experience, 9 times out of 10, a wizard prepares the same spells that a sorceror would know and the extra 20, 40, 60, or 200 spells that he might have in his spellbook do him no good whatsoever. The important difference is that at odd levels, he has two spells of a level the sorceror has no spells of and at even levels, he can choose from at least 4 spells at his highest level while the sorceror has no choice at all. The ability to add spells to a spellbook functions more to reduce the opportunity cost of taking spells that will be useless at higher levels (sleep, scare, etc), to make up for bad spell choices (I learned Blur! What was I thinking? Oh well, it's only 400gp to get a spell that's worth casting), or to adapt to a different party configuration (Hmm, there's another wizard in the party now and our cleric is 6th level after failing those two fort saves. I guess I'll take Greater Magic Weapon in case we run into critters with DR and let the other wizard take Slow).
My 10th (almost 11th) level fighter/wizard/spellsword in Living Greyhawk, for instance hasn't scribed enough spells to even replace the cost of crafting a BBB. Four first level spells (Alarm, Protection from Evil, Magic Missile, Expeditious Retreat), four second level spells (Flaming Sphere, Cat's Grace, False Life, Scorcher), and two third level spells (Greater Magic Weapon, Slow). Total scribing cost: 3200gp. He can scribe two fourth level spells before he'd have been better off making the book (and considering that he doesn't have the feat, he could scribe 8 fourth level spells before he'd really break even). To be honest, a more careful spell selection (and resisting the lure of "oh, cool, I captured a spellbook with a unique spell--I'd better learn it") would have made even the scribing he's done unnecessary.
Given the opportunity to reselect his spells, he would probably have spent only 1600 gp or so on scribing. The rest of the cash would go for a nifty magic weapon or something.
WRT the hypothetical 20th level character, I can think of a whole lot of things that would be more useful than 83,750gp worth of spells--most of which--you probably never prepare anyway. A gem of True Seeing would be one. Or a +5 vest of resistance, Luckstone, and Pale Green Ioun stone. Or an +1 Sure Striking Holy Evil outsider bane Adamantium longsword (Any character who regularly uses more than one weapon could use a good backup). Or, if the character is a pure sorceror, a +4 mithral buckler of heavy fortification. Or a major cloak of displacement, a +5 vest of resistance, and a spell storing ioun stone. Alternately, a metamagic rod of Quicken spell might come in handy for the sorceror (more than 84k for the good ones but even a minor one would be useful). Heck, the sorceror could spend the 84k on 4 scrolls of each of the spells that the wizard scribed and a Heward's Handy Haversack to hold them; then he'd be able to immediately cast them in the rare event that they were actually wanted. The wizard is likely to--at the very least--need to spend a few minutes filling an empty slot.
However wisely the wizard spends his other money, the 84k that he's spending on spells (which will probably not significantly enhance his abilities in any way whatsoever since he'll probably only prepare them occasionally).
Given the very marginal utility of adding spells to a wizard's spellbook (and that only my foolishness in spell selection has made my wizard spend even 1/3 of the cost of a BBB on scribing in almost 11 levels), I don't see anything broken about allowing BBB to negate the cost of scribing spells. Maybe it's different for epic levels but there's a reason that epic levels come in an entirely different book and that epic spells have a different mechanic than non-epic ones.
In my experience, 9 times out of 10, a wizard prepares the same spells that a sorceror would know and the extra 20, 40, 60, or 200 spells that he might have in his spellbook do him no good whatsoever. The important difference is that at odd levels, he has two spells of a level the sorceror has no spells of and at even levels, he can choose from at least 4 spells at his highest level while the sorceror has no choice at all. The ability to add spells to a spellbook functions more to reduce the opportunity cost of taking spells that will be useless at higher levels (sleep, scare, etc), to make up for bad spell choices (I learned Blur! What was I thinking? Oh well, it's only 400gp to get a spell that's worth casting), or to adapt to a different party configuration (Hmm, there's another wizard in the party now and our cleric is 6th level after failing those two fort saves. I guess I'll take Greater Magic Weapon in case we run into critters with DR and let the other wizard take Slow).
My 10th (almost 11th) level fighter/wizard/spellsword in Living Greyhawk, for instance hasn't scribed enough spells to even replace the cost of crafting a BBB. Four first level spells (Alarm, Protection from Evil, Magic Missile, Expeditious Retreat), four second level spells (Flaming Sphere, Cat's Grace, False Life, Scorcher), and two third level spells (Greater Magic Weapon, Slow). Total scribing cost: 3200gp. He can scribe two fourth level spells before he'd have been better off making the book (and considering that he doesn't have the feat, he could scribe 8 fourth level spells before he'd really break even). To be honest, a more careful spell selection (and resisting the lure of "oh, cool, I captured a spellbook with a unique spell--I'd better learn it") would have made even the scribing he's done unnecessary.
Given the opportunity to reselect his spells, he would probably have spent only 1600 gp or so on scribing. The rest of the cash would go for a nifty magic weapon or something.
WRT the hypothetical 20th level character, I can think of a whole lot of things that would be more useful than 83,750gp worth of spells--most of which--you probably never prepare anyway. A gem of True Seeing would be one. Or a +5 vest of resistance, Luckstone, and Pale Green Ioun stone. Or an +1 Sure Striking Holy Evil outsider bane Adamantium longsword (Any character who regularly uses more than one weapon could use a good backup). Or, if the character is a pure sorceror, a +4 mithral buckler of heavy fortification. Or a major cloak of displacement, a +5 vest of resistance, and a spell storing ioun stone. Alternately, a metamagic rod of Quicken spell might come in handy for the sorceror (more than 84k for the good ones but even a minor one would be useful). Heck, the sorceror could spend the 84k on 4 scrolls of each of the spells that the wizard scribed and a Heward's Handy Haversack to hold them; then he'd be able to immediately cast them in the rare event that they were actually wanted. The wizard is likely to--at the very least--need to spend a few minutes filling an empty slot.
However wisely the wizard spends his other money, the 84k that he's spending on spells (which will probably not significantly enhance his abilities in any way whatsoever since he'll probably only prepare them occasionally).
Given the very marginal utility of adding spells to a wizard's spellbook (and that only my foolishness in spell selection has made my wizard spend even 1/3 of the cost of a BBB on scribing in almost 11 levels), I don't see anything broken about allowing BBB to negate the cost of scribing spells. Maybe it's different for epic levels but there's a reason that epic levels come in an entirely different book and that epic spells have a different mechanic than non-epic ones.
The Souljourner said:
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
I'd love to track down the quote from Monte, actually, because I have a vague memory it was something like "Well, that wasn't what I meant when I wrote it, but... sure, why not?"
-Hyp.
Wormwood
Adventurer
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
That's not the first time it came up, though. There was a thread on the Wizards boards that has since been deleted - it was on the "Message Board roundup" section of the ENWorld News at the time.
-Hyp.
