Sorceror in current edition worse than wizard?

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, to me it shows that the designers thought what they wrote was clear enough, but have to clarify after the fact because they didn't perfectly state everything in lawyerspeak when they wrote the PHB.

Actually, if "at no cost" was their intention, it wasn't a failure to state everything in lawyerspeak that's the problem... it's a failure to state everything in Englishspeak...

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Wizards are perfectly playable with or without Boccobs Blessed Book. It is simply more convient when Boccobs Blessed Book is available. It is not neccessary, and so I don't consider it "broken".

The point though, is this: without BBB, getting a new 9th level spell form source other than levellign up, i worth between 5,000gp and 6,000gp.

And with or without BBB, it takes 10 days' time to scribe the spell.

Early on, perhaps, but once the Intelligence bonuses really start adding up, this isn't the case. This is especially not true if the Wizard is a specialist.

Two things.

One, intelligence doesn't give you new spells, except at first level.

Two, being a specialist doesn't give you additional extra spells.

I was referring to the fact that Sorcerers, upon acquiring access to a new level of spells, will only know one spell from that level. They also get access to that level of spells later than a Wizard will. And, since we're debating whether or not the classes are balanced, I assume we're talking about all the levels of progression. Most campaigns rarely reach level 20, after all.

One level later, but when they get the spell(s), they're as good at casting them as the Wizard is. And sure, when they first get a spell level, they only get 1 spell of that level. So what? Wizards get two, but -- aside from specialists, and excluding bonusses form attributes, they only get to prepare ONE of them.

What's the lowest form of debate? Oh right, when you can't attack the argument, attack the person making the argument. Bravo.

What's even lower than that?

Repeating the same false argument ad nauseum, in a (probable) attempt to irritate the other party.

Bravo.

I am not interpreting whether or not Boccobs Blessed Book is supposed to eliminate scribing costs for Wizards. I am simply accepting what the designers say the intention of Boccobs Blessed Book is.

What a designer says, outside the FAQ and/or Errata, has no more real bearing than what I say.

And while they may be taking the easy way out, I don't want to believe they were so stupid as to INTEND to put in such a grossly overpowered item as a book that allows FREE scroll-scribing, for only 9Kgp.

Well, unless you have a time machine and are telepathic, I'm going to go out on a limb and trust what they say.

Your loss.

Actually, to me it shows that the designers thought what they wrote was clear enough, but have to clarify after the fact because they didn't perfectly state everything in lawyerspeak when they wrote the PHB.

See above comment about not wanting to believe they were that dumb.

Yes. High magic worlds have benefits for Sorcerers too, but they have more benefits for Wizards. Wizards gain the most out of a high magic world, as it magnifies the advantage of spell selection they have.

I don't see that your assertation holds water. High magic means broader spellbook selection for Wizards, and easier compensation for narrow spells-known for sorcerors. The two are reasonably equal in impact.

You're not being very clear here. Are you asking what classes other than Wizards gain a bonus from high Intelligence?

Yes. What class or classes gain a benefit from high intelligence, which (A) do not cost the Wizard precious spellcasting levels, and (B) are not classes that would grant EQUAL benefit for a high charisma (i.e. a spellcasting prestige class), yet (C) give a bonus other than skill points, based on high intelligence.

I can't think of a single one, myself.

And you can go do the same thing with other classes that benefit from a high Intelligence. It's irrelevant because it applies to both classes equally.

And I don't see any class the Wizard could go into, which would especially benefit him due to high Intelligence, where the Sorceror's high Charisma would not produce a comparable benefit.

The Wizard doesn't have to have the spell memorized right then and there. You can keep one or two slots oopen for emergency utility spells, or you can simply retreat to a secure area, and memorize the spell you need from your spellbook. If a Sorcerer doesn't have the spell that's needed, he's just out of luck.

Fifteen minutes in a secure area. Boy, any GM who gives that sort of benefit on a regular basis is a wimp. What are you gonna do, call a Time Out, and expect the Orc barbarian raiders to honor it?

I'm not overlooking it. I simply don't see it as much of a problem as you do.

What you're doing is discount it entirely.

I think having less spells per day is much preferable to having less spells known.

As you've said, with bonusses for high attributes, Wizards have nearly as many spells per day as Sorcerors.

And, unless the GM is excessively generous, both in gifting stuff to the wizard, and in interpreting BBB in a broken manner, the Sorceror won't know that many spells fewer than the Wizard, either.

And so the Sorcerer has to spend GP just to try to come close to the sheer variety the Wizard is capable of.

As the Wizard (by your own statement) has spent GP to come up to the Sorceror's "Cast all day wihtout worry".

Actually, they're all three. They're more useful, they're better team players, and they're more powerful. I would always rather have a Wizard in the party than a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer doesn't have any depth, and is only useful in a limited amount of situations, while the Wizard is useful in almost every situation.

If you truly believe thhis tripe you've just spouted off, then I daresay you've never made a proper stab at playing a sorceror, nor seen someone else do so.

You know, I was really having fun debating this. But you apparently are not, and are resorting to insults. You seem to be emotionally involved in this debate, as petty as that is. As such, I do not care to argue this any longer. I have better things to do with my time.

Ah, how nice, a long post and then a parting shot of "so long". Nice one.

As for emotionally invested; if you don't feel STRONGLY about something, why would you bother debating it at all, hmm? I honetly think you have been trolling. Your parting remark above only clinches it for me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And I don't see any class the Wizard could go into, which would especially benefit him due to high Intelligence, where the Sorceror's high Charisma would not produce a comparable benefit.

While the Feat and Skill prereqs don't fit a Wizard very well, one level of Duellist does give Canny Defense.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Okay, Hyp, I'll grant you that one, though I daresay ... most wizards (or sorcerors, for that matter) would rather be holding a staff or wand, than a rapier.

And it does cost a caster level to take that level of Duellist.

...

I suppose Sorcerors will just have to settle for getting a big boost to AC from becoming Incorporeal (say, via Ghostform).

 

[Hypersmurf]

And it does cost a caster level to take that level of Duellist.

Well, yes, but the same can be said for Sorcerer/Paladin...?

I think there are some Cha-to-AC PrCs out there... there're a couple in the Freeport Campaign Setting, I think. Dread Pirate, maybe?

-Hyp.

 

[Fenes 2]

I am really astonished how people dismiss the ability to spontaneously cast any spell you know. Do your wizard never enter situations where they prepared the wrong spells, or not enough of the right spells?

Add metamagic to that, with the possibility to cast that silent dispel magic until you get rid of the silence cast on you, or to cast that silent dimension door to escape, and it becomes even more powerful.

Again, how can you dismiss the ability to spontaneously cast and metmagic any spell you know so easily? IMHO, it more than makes up for a wider range of spells to choose from to prepare each morning, especially if you are not sure what challenges you will be facing this day.

 

[Darklone]

No, I can't say that my wizards had problems to prepare their spells every day. Honestly, the sorcerers could have done so too without losing anything. They cast 2 shields and 5 magic missiles in lvl1 each day... a certain amount of Mirror Images and Bulls strength (or whatever...)

Yeah, sure they CAN cast spontaneously.
Well, I consider myself a DM who likes to surprise his players.... but a sorcerer with his small repertoire of spells isn't really so advantaged because he usually ends up casting the same spells over and over again.

 

[LuYangShih]

Alright. As Mr. Burns would say, I've had one of my trademark changes of heart.

Pax, I am arguing with you because I find debate enjoyable. It's intellectually stimulating, and it's good to see what other people think on an issue. I see no need to get emotionally involved in a debate, it only clouds the mind. But then again, I'm the Wizard proponent, and you're the Sorcerer proponent.

I think I'm going to quit with the quote/reply posting. It has a tendency to miss the forest for the trees, and besides, I'm getting tired of typing {quote} and {b} so much.

Alright, first off, the previous poster who stated part of what makes or breaks Wizards is the specific campaign setting is correct. Wizards are much more dependent on the world they live in than Sorcerers are. As you say, it can take up to 10 days to scribe a spell, so if time is an issue in your campaign (we've only got eight days and 9 hours to save the world!), the Wizard will be much less effective than a Sorcerer would be.

On the other hand, a Wizard will be more effective if time isn't an issue. The main constraint Wizards face, in my opinion, is time. If the Wizard has time, the Wizard will end up the superior class.

By the way, Wizards do gain additional spells to cast per day if they are specialists. They gain an extra spell per level to cast every day. And you say I don't know enough about Sorcerers. Also, when I spoke of the Intelligence bonus giving extra spells, I meant that the more you increase your Intelligence through level gains and items, the more spells you will be able to cast, reducing the discrepancy between Sorcerers and Wizards in spells cast per day.

As for the rest, Hypersmurf already mentioned the Duelist as a PrC the Wizard can take that gives benefits based on Intelligence. Also, I don't see your point in that it costs Wizards precious spellcasting levels. That is always the case with multiclassing spellcasters, and it applies equally to multiclassing a Sorcerer as a Paladin or Blackguard.

Spontaneous casting is great. It's the main benefit the Sorcerers have, but in my opinion, it doesn't make up for the fact that sometimes Sorcerers will simply not have the spells needed to deal with the situation at hand. This is almost never the case with Wizards.

You keep saying that the Sorcerers spontaneous casting overrides the versatility of the Wizard, but I just don't see how. What if you are in the middle of an investigation, and want magical help? How many Sorcerers take Contact Other Plane as one of their known spells? And the same sort of situation can and will apply to things like exploration, scouting, spying, and so on.

Sorcerers have a limited application, and they can't deal with the large variety of situations a Wizard can, at least in my experience. I've seen Sorcerers played, and they're fun, and effective, but not as effective as Wizards. You obviously disagree, but until I see a Sorcerer that can come even close to dealing with the large amount of situations a Wizard can, you probably won't convince me that a Sorcerer is as good as a Wizard.

 

[Bauglir]

Also, when I spoke of the Intelligence bonus giving extra spells, I meant that the more you increase your Intelligence through level gains and items, the more spells you will be able to cast, reducing the discrepancy between Sorcerers and Wizards in spells cast per day.

It can be reasonably assumed that a sorcerer's charisma will be climbing as fast as the wizard's int, faster even, depending on how you interpret BBB.

How many Sorcerers take Contact Other Plane as one of their known spells?

How many Wizards memorize it every day? Or take it as one of their 2 spells upon levelling? In both cases chances are a scroll will be bought. The wizards can gain a long term advantage (assuming he has time) by scribing the scroll for future use.

What about when the party encounters a red dragon and all the Wizard has memorized is fireball? The sorcerer meanwhile can be merrily blasting away with cold substituted, empowered fireballs.

Or what if you just HAVE to disable an opponent non-lethally. Will the wizard happen to have a Hold Person heightened to their highest spell level ready to go? Or another one in case that first one didn't stick?

Given a wider spell selection, and prior knowledge, the wizard is better equipped to meet any situation. But arrive in a situation unprepared (far more common IMC) and the sorcerer really shines.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about when the party encounters a red dragon and all the Wizard has memorized is fireball? The sorcerer meanwhile can be merrily blasting away with cold substituted, empowered fireballs.

Depending on how you interpret metamagic stacking, of course, that Empower may be wasted...

-Hyp.