Sorceror in current edition worse than wizard?

[greycastle]

Currently i'm in a small jam...(36 point buy system)

I can either play a Fey'ri Rogue2/Fighter2/Sorceror16
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 16
and be a demolisher, but good for little else...

or i can play a Fey'ri Rogue3/Fighter2/Wizard15
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
with more feats, HUGE spell versitility, quite alot of spells, and generally more powerhoused

1. which pakage should i go? (don't bother mentioning the Multiclass penalty, we occaisonally rule out such thigns *e.g. since they WERE sun elves...*

2. Why is the sorceror so seeminly lacking?

Now i understand while a fight goes on a Wizard will be "oh i don't know, i only have one fireball, and i might need it later", while a sorceror shoots three and wonders whether to flame the forest next to him...

But then the Wizard buffs himself, teleports into a house, shoots of some ammunition, teleports back, creates a ice wall all around the flaming building, and then a wall of force around that so no one can get out...

sure a sorceror could do this too, but he'd be sacrificing ALOT to be able to do this, while a wizard only has to prepare.

Then theres the thought that "the wizards spell book is gone...thats it"...but a smart player will water/fire proof his book AT THE LEAST, and then addsome glyphs of warding, some contigency effects to teh book, etc etc.

Opinons? Thanks in advance

 

[LeifVignirsson]

DOOD! You get to start off at 18th level?! Wow, and here I thought my DM was rather generous letting me start at 5th...

Let me see if I can give in my two cents... You may want to get the change ready...

1) Can you go for what is in the box? No, seriously, if those are your choices, I would say go with the Wizard package myself. You have an extra level of Rogue that can help out in some of those skills that you can't get as a Fgt/Wiz or Fgt/Sor.

2) I think the Sorceror is a tad more ideal for those who wish to mutliclass, or at least that is what I get when I use my own character (Dragon Disiciple/Fighter/Rogue/Sorceror - 5/2/2/2). If mixed in with the right combo, it can be rather effective, but then it gives you more of an option to roleplay the character too.

I guess it is just a matter of personal preference, a level between the two in my eyes (how poor they are) really doesn't mean much. I see it as an either/or situation. I guess it depends on what you are gonna do with the character...

 

[Pax]

Overall, at the same level, a Sorceror and a Wizard are, generally, nicely balanced with ech other.

Sorcerors have supreme tactical flexibility and staying power.

Wizards, OTOH, have supreme strategic versatility.

Each suffers where the other prevails.

...

What I would do is, look for the sorts of spells you expect to cast OFTEN. See if you can shoehorn them into the number of spells you'd know as a Sorceror. If you can, Sorceror is probably the better choice.

If not, Wizard is probably the better choice.

For those spells you don't epect to cast very often, that's what wands, staves, and scrolls were made for!!! This is especially true if there is a Wizard in the party; s/he can keep you resupplied with needed scrolls, since the occasional-use spells will likely be "rare circumstance oh crap we're hosed" sorts of spells, anyway. Worst case, at market value, and you have a nigh-guaranteed source.

Overall, aside from a High intelligence and/or buying scrolls and paying scribing costs, Wizards and Sorcerors, HONESTLY, will know the about 75% as many spells as a Wizard anyway ... well, not counting Cantrips.

Sorcerors at 20th level know 34 non-cantrip spells.

Wizards know 41 non-cantrip spells, plus their 1st-level Intelligence mod (start with 3+ mod, then add 2 per level).

For a 14-Int Wizard, that's 43 noncantrip spells ... all of 9 more than the Sorceror knows. Anything else is essentially "treasure" ... found loot, bought goods, etc, but "equipment" nonetheless.

 

[The Souljourner]

At high levels with high stats, the sorcerer just can't stand up to the wizard. You so rarely use up all your spells anyway, the couple extra a sorcerer gets are wasted except at the top two levels. I mean, do you really think the wizard misses those two level 1 slots? Me neither. Meanwhile, with so many different spells out there, you gain a TON by being able to take one or two of each useful spell each level. And at that level, there's no reason the wizard shouldn't have every single spell he wants. Don't have it in the book? Go buy a scroll. Bam.

And personally, I think sorcerers are horribly boring.

Sorcerer: "I throw another fireball."
Wizard: "But I think what we really need here is ice storm."
Sorcerer: "I'm sorry, this is not Burger King. You cannot get it Your Way. You get it My Way, and that means fireball or nothing."

The real problem is, higher stats help wizards cast more spells per day, while they don't help sorcerers know more spells per level.

-The Souljourner

 

[Brista]

There are certainly interesting options you can do with a sorceror besides fireball

For instance if you only cast monster summoning spells it would be a very unusual and quite potent character.

More sensibly if you took a wide range of useful spells then you would be very effective. Analyze dweomer and Dispel Magic are good examples of spells that might see a lot of action one day then none the next

The main problem here is multiclassing. Are you able to persuade your GM to let you have a straight 18th level character - you are losing your high end spells for a point or two of base attack and the ability to do d6 sneak attack

 

[Number47]

In some situations, where the party knows exactly what they are facing when and where, a wizard is better than a sorceror.

For the far more common occurence, you have know idea what is going to happen today, the sorceror is better. Why? Because if the wizard prepares the wrong spells, there is nothing he can do about them. Nothing. The sorceror never prepares the wrong spells. As long as you don't shoot yourself in the foot with the spells you pick, a 16th level sorceror should beat out a 15th level wizard in real adventuring.

Oh, and to all those people who say wizards rock because wizards can buy scrolls and be prepared for everything... umm, so can sorcerors. They use every scroll a wizard can, so I don't understand your argument.

One more thing. Metamagic is better for a sorceror because they can do it on the fly. Particularly Extend, Silent and Still. Those are ones that you don't want to have to guess if you're going to need when preparing. Although it's true that Quicken spell cannot be used for a sorceror, I question the real usefulness of a +4 metamagic feat.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

e.g. since they WERE sun elves...*

Yes, they were. But that was generations ago, before their ancestors took succubi into their beds. Now their chaotic nature makes you better suited for the role of the sorcerer.

And it boils down to flexibility. Either you get flexibility in spells known, or in spells cast.

My advice: Go for sorcerer. It fits the race better, and with the right spell selection (consider spells like shadow evocation and shadow conjuration) and a little equipment for the spells you might need *sometimes* (Staff, Wand, Scroll) You'll be fine.

DOOD! You get to start off at 18th level?! Wow, and here I thought my DM was rather generous letting me start at 5th...

I think he'll eventually get there.

Also, it's not that uncommon: If your character dies (and there's no chance to raise him), you'll get a new character, and if you're in a high-level campaign, you obviously won't start at 1st level.

In a game I play in, we recently returned from the demiplane of dread (Ravenloft) back home to the Realms - and my Rokugani Ninja went back home to his world, so I had to create a new character, and he had level 12.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I mean, do you really think the wizard misses those two level 1 slots?

You sounds as if the marginal edge in slots were the whole point of being a sorcerer. It's not. Spontaneous casting is the point.

The sorcerer's true advantage is that he's never caught unprepared. His disadvantage is that he's never caught prepared, either.

 

[Pax]

At high levels with high stats, the sorcerer just can't stand up to the wizard. You so rarely use up all your spells anyway, the couple extra a sorcerer gets are wasted except at the top two levels. I mean, do you really think the wizard misses those two level 1 slots? Me neither. Meanwhile, with so many different spells out there, you gain a TON by being able to take one or two of each useful spell each level. And at that level, there's no reason the wizard shouldn't have every single spell he wants. Don't have it in the book? Go buy a scroll. Bam.

And personally, I think sorcerers are horribly boring.

Sorcerer: "I throw another fireball."
Wizard: "But I think what we really need here is ice storm."
Sorcerer: "I'm sorry, this is not Burger King. You cannot get it Your Way. You get it My Way, and that means fireball or nothing."

The real problem is, higher stats help wizards cast more spells per day, while they don't help sorcerers know more spells per level.

-The Souljourner

Sorcerors underpowered at high levels?

Heh, says YOU.

I just finished making a Sorceror for an Arena (ECL 25, but he's only got 18 sorceror levels); his stats aren't Epic, either, as he's only got 22HD total, and no Epic stat boosters. Yet, hsi spellcasting looks like so:

[color=white]
LVL  DC  Base Stat #/DAY Known
 0   27   6    -     6    9
 1   28   6    4    10    5
 2   29   6    4    10    5
 3   30   6    4    10    4
 4   31   6    4    10    4
 5   32   6    3     9    4
 6   33   6    3     9    3
 7   34   6    3     9    3
 8   35   5    3     8    2
 9   36   3    2     5    1
10   **   1    3     4    *[/color]

As I said above, at 20th level, unless the Wizard spends lots of GP, he won't know mroe than a dozen spells "extra", compared to a sorceror of the same level.

Just buy a scroll? Shyeah, right. Buy a scroll, and scribe it. And no, not every DM thinks the line in Boccob's Blessed Books "freely accepts" means "the owner may scribe for free". I, for one, don't; I used to, until I started making epic wizards, and realised just how MUCH money was being saved with the free scribing costs supposedly provided by the BBB.

One such character was going to spend about 38,000gp for scrolls and scribing, and then (for safety's sake), spend another 80,000gp scribing a second copy of his spellbooks (yes, plural -- as in, SIX volumes).

118,000gp is nothing to sneeze at. What the Wizard fairly spends increasing their repertoir, the Sorceror spends on permanent items for himself -- or on scrolls, wands, staves, potions, etc, of those spells he doesn't know, but feels he "just has to have" ...

And you know what ... I can't even recall the last time I made a sorceror with fireball.

No, wait ... I can ... an Elemental Savant (Fire), IIRC ... about ... six or eight sorcerors back (I make characters kinda compulsively, so sue me, heh).

A good sorceror picks spells that have effects OTHER than just damage (I'd rather a shadow evocation than a fireball, any day ... it's more flexible, adn the DCs are higher too).

 

[LuYangShih]

Boccobs Book renders the GP cost for scribing new spells largely irrelevant to any Wizard with a Wisdom above 6. I personally prefer Wizards, but that's because I prefer the "hard work and intelligence" approach to the "I can do it just because" approach of the Sorcerer. Wizards are more powerful in most campaigns, as well. You rarely cast all your spells, and even if you do, you can supplement your daily spells with Scrolls, Wands and other items.

Still, just pick what you like. Obviously, power is not the main consideration here, as you are already going to be multiclassing several ways that will hurt your overall power level, since you are an Arcane caster. As long as you enjoy the character, and they aren't so weak they are useless or very likely to perish early on, it should work out fine.