Speed Enchantment and Two Weapon Fighting

[kreynolds]

I don't think speed has to be like haste. The important thing is that it doesn't stack.

Personally, I think they said that to ensure people don't think weapons of speed gives you +4 haste AC bonus, and don't try to use the extra action for anything except an attack. So, weapon of speed is like a very strict haste. All you can do is attack.

Exactly. This is one of the reasons why I believe the intent is pretty clear, especially given the +4 modifier. It simply wouldn't be worth it otherwise.

 

[Crothian]

Exactly. This is one of the reasons why I believe the intent is pretty clear, especially given the +4 modifier. It simply wouldn't be worth it otherwise.

This is amazing. You know a few months ago we argues as much a sanyone. Now, we seem to be agreeing more and more.

 

[kreynolds]

You know a few months ago we argues as much a sanyone.

We did? I hadn't really though about it.

 

[Crothian]

We did? I hadn't really though about it.

It wasn't like you an KarinsDad. I don't get into longwinded arguements. After the two main postions have been stated, and a few counter arguments made I usually lose interest as people just keep saying the same thing in diffferent ways over and over and over. It's just something I noticed. I have a habit of noticing odd things like that.

 

[comrade raoul]

Now here's an interesting question, and one I haven't thought of before. Do you get the extra speed attack in an attack of opportunity? At first, I'd be inclined to say yes, but what about the rule limiting a character to one attack of opportunity, per round, against a given opponent?

 

[Crothian]

Now here's an interesting question, and one I haven't thought of before. Do you get the extra speed attack in an attack of opportunity? At first, I'd be inclined to say yes, but what about the rule limiting a character to one attack of opportunity, per round, against a given opponent?

You only get one extra attack with a speed weapon a round. However, I think it has to happen on the person's initiative.

 

[kreynolds]

Do you get the extra speed attack in an attack of opportunity?

I'm inclined to say no.

At first, I'd be inclined to say yes, but what about the rule limiting a character to one attack of opportunity, per round, against a given opponent?

That's not even the big part. Haste gives you an extra partial action per round, but you can only use this action on your initiative. You can't use it with an AoO. The same applies, and should apply, to speed weapons.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If you see the extra attack of speed as a special partial action, it makes sense that you can get it even with a normal attack action. I haven't thought of it before. But it's not exactly clear wheter it is intented that way: although they say that it doesn't stack with haste, they don't say that's because it's a partial action, too. Maybe they wanted to prevent to get the number of attacks out of hand (A hasted bladesinger with bab 16+, song of fury and a speed longsword would have seven attacks per round!), but the attack is still an extra attack like that of flurry of blows and you need a full attack for it.

Now here's an interesting question, and one I haven't thought of before. Do you get the extra speed attack in an attack of opportunity? At first, I'd be inclined to say yes, but what about the rule limiting a character to one attack of opportunity, per round, against a given opponent?

It works only with actions, and a AoO is no action but a reaction.

 

[BlindKobold]

... but the attack is still an extra attack like that of flurry of blows and you need a full attack for it.

Actually... the extra attack is NOTHING like flurry of blows. Flurry of blows is similiar to two-weapon fighting or rapid shot... it gives you an extra attack that can be used at a cost of -2 to ALL attacks.

Speed blades are based on haste, but is a specialized partial action that allows only an attack, but at your highest BAB. It's similiar to Expert Tactician (errata Song & Silence version), where you get an extra partial action under certain conditions that can only be used for an attack.

I think people are not really understanding the way it actions work.

Normally, to get more than one attack, you must take a full round action. Why? Because you need the extra time to make the attack - theoretically.

Ok.... so far... so good. So a round usually looks like this:

Full round broken into two actions:
Move-equivelent action (move, etc.)
Standard Action (attack, cast, etc.)

OR

Full round used for one action:
Full-round Action (multiple attacks with BAB, two-weapon fighting, rapid shot, etc.)

Now... with those two scenarios... there's not much arguement. To get multiple attacks, you must have a full-round action.

HOWEVER, the way the Speed weapons (and haste) works is that they both give you EXTRA actions. So an action that is outside of the normal full round action a player has.

So, instead it would look like this:

Full round broken into two actions:
Move-equivelent action (move, etc.)
Standard Action (attack, cast, etc.)
Extra partial Action: Attack once

OR

Full round used for one action:
Full-round Action (multiple attacks with BAB, two-weapon fighting, rapid shot, etc.)
Extra partial Action: Attack once


Now... you only get partial actions on your initiative. Therefore, speed weapons would theoretically NOT work on an AoO. HOWEVER.... the speed enchantment for armor is a +3 bonus (no errata yet so still +3). The speed enchantment on a sword is a +4 bonus. This would seem to indicate that the sword's enchantment is meant to be more powerful.

This could lead one to believe that the Speed weapons make an extra attack whenever you actually attack with them... simliar to the extra attack granted with the Improved Trip ability after a successful trip.

Personally, I think there is ALOT of room for interruptation on this subject since I think the rules and wording around this particular subject is horribly muddied.

 

[kreynolds]

Actually...

In other words, "What [insert poster's name here] said."

Well put BlindKobold.