D&D 5E Spell Versatility is GONE. Rejoice!

[Undrave]

Ok, that’s helpful.

In the old days wizards could prep for anything if they had a day to prep.

If wizards are spontaneous casters and sorcerers are still spontaneous full casters - what, exactly, is the design difference between them other than fluff? As the number of spells known by sorcerers increases, is that design difference still in place, particularly when availability of scrolls and spell books as loot is not guaranteed?

What changes would you suggest that retain some form of distinctive differences between the classes? While also recalling that there are many other classes in the game? And that we are talking about two of the most powerful classes in the game, to boot.

I really can't come up with something off the cuff like that, but I feel like the designers didn't ask themselves those questions enough.

I heard rumbling of a beta Dragon Sorcerer in the playtests that gained more and more draconic aspects as they spent sorcery points, but that whole concept was scrapped at the last possible minute to give us the Sorcerer we ended up with. I think they just went with too 'safe' a design for the Sorcerer and as a result the Wizard also suffered from that lack of differentiation. I find the Wizard terribly boring, but it's also that familiar design Wizard fans want, so, really, the Sorcerer is the one that should have been overhauled.

Also, about prep time, "Batman can beat anybody with enough time to prepare".

 

[DEFCON 1]

Tell me, how many times have you as a player -or one of your players- have created a houserule or homebrewed something? Also, notice that given the current circumstances, we are in a sellers market. Any GM starting a game will have plenty of players to choose from. The more something is meant to be official, the more likely it will be already included when a game starts instead of having to be asked every time. Simply as that, as long as we aren't in a shoppers market, official matters.

>>>>

Under this rationale, we don't need rules to begin with. Even more, I don't need other players or a DM and I can just write the stories I want for myself.

My players ask to use UA stuff all the time. I had a player in just this last campaign use the Psionic Soul UA for her character. I've also allowed the Mystic to be used several times by people, even knowing full well that some parts were considered "over-powered" via white room analysis. And we've used custom cleric domains, I've re-written quite a number of Battle Master maneuvers for my players, etc.

Using house rules, UA, or 3rd party material is nothing to be afraid of as a DM. Because if you trust your players, you let them try them out and you compensate and work around it to become more comfortable. Or if it obviously isn't working after you've played it for a while, you gently tell your player that something's got to change.

But to use the excuse that in order to play the character you want you have to ASK your DM to use a houerule or UA or 3rd party material each time, is in my opinion rather weak. I mean if a player can't be bothered to just ask the DM for something they'd like to try out because it's too hard to ask, or they did it last time, or they think your DM won't go along with it, or they're afraid the DM just won't include them in their game at all because they deigned to ask for something not already in one of the books... then those players should probably just take what they already have and make due.

And in answer to your second point, yes. Yes, you are correct. None of us NEED any of these rule to roleplay. That's why there are so many RPGs out there with minimal rules that are very popular. Because intensive rules to roleplay aren't necessary. Now, we play D&D because they do have some interesting rules that assist us in our games... but in no way should they dominate them. And if you spend all your time worrying about a half-a-point in DPR to decide which subclass you are going to play, or complain that one class has less spells than another (and aren't willing as a table to just houserule gaining one or more extra if it matters that much)... that's exactly why WotC doesn't bother to cater to you. Because your needs and requirements are not worth them worrying about it.

 

[ph0rk]

I find the Wizard terribly boring,

They're both pretty boring, if you ask me.

Stronger metamagic and fewer spells would have helped, real Vancian casting for the wizard would have helped, instead both are on bland easy mode. It isn't terribly hard to select useful spells for PHB sorcerers (and old metamagic costs for upcasting are a thing of the past), and while it may feel boring - I will refer again to the fighter.

 

[Undrave]

They're both pretty boring, if you ask me.

Stronger metamagic and fewer spells would have helped, real Vancian casting for the wizard would have helped, instead both are on bland easy mode. It isn't terribly hard to select useful spells for PHB sorcerers (and old metamagic costs for upcasting are a thing of the past), and while it may feel boring - I will refer again to the fighter.

Personally I would make them CON caster and rather than a lengthy list of spells have them start with a basic energy emitting cantrip (or two) and then they would be able to spend Sorcery Points (or 'strain') to enhance them in various ways (ways depending on their subclass), essentially creating spells on the fly. With a few bonus 'proper' spells at various levels (like Fly or Invisiblity, etc, straight forward stuff). Sorcerers shouldn't be into using carefully crafted 'spells' with like codified incantations and movements or pinching dusted bat wings from a pouch. They should be slinging unrestrained elemental energy, channeling them from their own body and be free to do other things. A Sorcerer should basically be the easiest thing to MC into and out of, so that you have stuff like Rogues, Fighters, Monks, etc with weird ancestry learning to tap into that dormant power but still continuing to practice their learnedskills. CON being useful to everyone as a secondary stat makes it that much easier.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What is the point of separate classes (wizard, sorcerer) if not that? And have you played previous editions? How would you describe prepared list casting if not versatility? Do you think they went to publishing with one arcane caster (wizards) holding the ability to eventually learn every spell on their list merely by accident?

I’m not the one that jammed too many classes in the same narrow design space.



A problem that would have been neatly avoided if there was a rule for wizards to swap out spells known in the variant rules UA. Not every campaign has scrolls easily available for wizards to add to their spell book.

And, as stated above - what about EKs and ATs?

As presented, spell versatility was highly flawed.

So give all known casters SV.

As for wizards swapping spells known...no. Give an optional rule for spell research for wizards to make up for campaigns not having scrolls and spell books and other wizards to learn from, sure.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They're both pretty boring, if you ask me.

It’s hard for me imagine why anyone should hear you out on what should or shouldn’t happen with them, then.

 

[embee]

Meh. It mostly seemed to exist to give DMs who are overly bound to RAW and/or running AL permission to allow players to swap out spell choices they regretted, and was clearly marked as optional so DMs who didn’t need that permission could leave it out. I don’t really see that anything is gained by its exclusion. Nothing is lost by it at my table, but something may be lost at tables where the DM is afraid to deviate from RAW.

I thought that UA content wasn't allowed in AL.

 

[MoonSong]

My players ask to use UA stuff all the time. I had a player in just this last campaign use the Psionic Soul UA for her character. I've also allowed the Mystic to be used several times by people, even knowing full well that some parts were considered "over-powered" via white room analysis. And we've used custom cleric domains, I've re-written quite a number of Battle Master maneuvers for my players, etc.

Using house rules, UA, or 3rd party material is nothing to be afraid of as a DM. Because if you trust your players, you let them try them out and you compensate and work around it to become more comfortable. Or if it obviously isn't working after you've played it for a while, you gently tell your player that something's got to change.

But to use the excuse that in order to play the character you want you have to ASK your DM to use a houerule or UA or 3rd party material each time, is in my opinion rather weak. I mean if a player can't be bothered to just ask the DM for something they'd like to try out because it's too hard to ask, or they did it last time, or they think your DM won't go along with it, or they're afraid the DM just won't include them in their game at all because they deigned to ask for something not already in one of the books... then those players should probably just take what they already have and make due.

And in answer to your second point, yes. Yes, you are correct. None of us NEED any of these rule to roleplay. That's why there are so many RPGs out there with minimal rules that are very popular. Because intensive rules to roleplay aren't necessary. Now, we play D&D because they do have some interesting rules that assist us in our games... but in no way should they dominate them. And if you spend all your time worrying about a half-a-point in DPR to decide which subclass you are going to play, or complain that one class has less spells than another (and aren't willing as a table to just houserule gaining one or more extra if it matters that much)... that's exactly why WotC doesn't bother to cater to you. Because your needs and requirements are not worth them worrying about it.

Umm, have you paid even a modicum of attention to me in the past decade? My last intense exchange in these boards was about not liking 4d6 drop lowest because it produced too high stats. I've constantly argued for the right to not have the most optimally created build. I've more than established that I hate blasting. I'm constantly saying that I couldn't optimize to save my life. I recently boasted about having played a paladin that was completely harmless and useless in a fight in 4e. Yet the moment I say one or two triggers you default to call me an optimizer munchkin that cares only about squeezing every decimal point possible out of DPR. You defaulted to that reaction the moment I brought up the importance of official material, and we have interacted casually for over a decade! Tell me then, what hope can I have with a random stranger in RPOl or Roll20 or a local pickup game once that is a thing again? (Sadly my friend group is scattered across two countries and three states)

(Seriously, am I really that forgettable? Should I go back to using pink letters then?)

 

[ph0rk]

As for wizards swapping spells known...no. Give an optional rule for spell research for wizards to make up for campaigns not having scrolls and spell books and other wizards to learn from, sure.

Which would have been a good way to solve the problem; but it didn't happen.

It’s hard for me imagine why anyone should hear you out on what should or shouldn’t happen with them, then.

So you'll only discuss classes with people who feel the same way about them that you do, even after playing them at various level tiers? I don't think you made the point you thought you just did.

 

[Mistwell]

Umm, have you paid even a modicum of attention to me in the past decade? My last intense exchange in these boards was about not liking 4d6 drop lowest because it produced too high stats. I've constantly argued for the right to not have the most optimally created build. I've more than established that I hate blasting. I'm constantly saying that I couldn't optimize to save my life. I recently boasted about having played a paladin that was completely harmless and useless in a fight in 4e. Yet the moment I say one or two triggers you default to call me an optimizer munchkin that cares only about squeezing every decimal point possible out of DPR. You defaulted to that reaction the moment I brought up the importance of official material, and we have interacted casually for over a decade! Tell me then, what hope can I have with a random stranger in RPOl or Roll20 or a local pickup game once that is a thing again? (Sadly my friend group is scattered across two countries and three states)

(Seriously, am I really that forgettable? Should I go back to using pink letters then?)

Who are you again? Moosesomething?