D&D 5E Spelljammer Errata

[Weiley31]

Not for me, to ape-like. That is what get's them into trouble. Make then less human, not more human. That being said I have no issue with this version of the wing flaps

I like the idea that the various monkey species out there can be used for having different variant/looks of Hadozee. I would like to play as a Hadozee character that looks like this, face pattern wise.

The Mandrill primate.

 

[dave2008]

So, the typical "shut up and go sit in the corner" because my beliefs aren't relevant?

No, why would you think that. I said I would go away. It just seems to me that I have a very different viewpoint than you. I don't see us coming to an agreement and we would just fill up this thread with nonsense. If you truly wish to debate about it, feel free to DM me.

 

[dave2008]

I like the idea that the various monkey species out there can be used for having different variant/looks of Hadozee. I would like to play as a Hadozee character that looks like this, face pattern wise.

The Mandrill primate.
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I don't. I want them to be less like a primate. That is the whole point to me. That they resemble primates is already primed with racially insensitive messaging

PS I love mandrills (go Demogorgon!)

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I disagree. It is not for WotC to pick a side. Why not have some creatures evolve and some be the creation of gods. I see no need for that to be a conflict in a fantasy world or game. It could also be fine for some worlds in the Multiverse to have risen from evolution and others to be the complete creation of deities. I really see no reasonable reason for this to be a conflict.

In this case, they chose the side of offending both groups at the same time (the ones who are offended by creationism and the ones who are offended by evolution). Having something that offends another group won't, I think, satisfy those who are themselves offended by something ELSE in the setting.

Whether they SHOULD listen to those offended groups is another matter.

 

[dave2008]

In this case, they chose the side of offending both groups at the same time (the ones who are offended by creationism and the ones who are offended by evolution).

I'm not sure that did that, but it is the correct approach: offend everyone equally

 

[Stormonu]

I don't. I want them to be less like a primate. That is the whole point to me. That they resemble primates is already primed with racially insensitive messaging

PS I love mandrills (go Demogorgon!)

Same here. They're a race of gliding creatures, and they somewhat remind me of Barsoom's Red Martians. They don't need to be equated to another thing or derived from another thing. They're a fun race, in SF or SJ.

 

[dave2008]

Same here. They're a race of gliding creatures, and they somewhat remind me of Barsoom's Red Martians. They don't need to be equated to another thing or derived from another thing. They're a fun race, in SF or SJ.

Now that is something we can agree on!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

saw the image before the product was released but didn't see the problem until it was pointed out. At which point realisation hit me like a ten-ton truck.

I had to look up which image and I still don’t think it’s a legit complaint, tbh. The story elements, yes, but the image is literally just a simian glider person bard.

Don't dither on the issue... if you want to call Perkins racist then just do it. Don't just imply it so you can give yourself an out if you get challenged on it.

After years on these forums, I am certain that if @Parmandur wanted to call someone racist, he just would do that.

My friend who is planning on running Spelljammer has been ranting about how horrible and racist the hadozee were and had decided to not use them. If it was as bad as he says they were, I'm really surprised that nobody caught it before print.

Have you read the writeup and seen the imagery in question? It’s not at all blatant or egregious. It should have been caught, sure, but it’s not at all surprising that a team of people whose minds weren’t on the subject of sensitivity would not make the connection. This is not at all on the level of Volo’s orcs or CoS Vistani.

Apparently, because Hadozee have a simian look, it was felt necessary to include a statement "they evolved from smaller mammals" and "evolved wing-like flaps". D&D is full of races that come into the fantasy milleniu fully formed and developed without having to have "evolved" from some lesser creature.

Evolved. No need for quotations. It’s a factual part of the natural world.

And they’re a race with no progenitor deity. Good. The multiverse should have things that aren’t the same as all the other things in the same category.

Oh, and there is no validity to the notion of “lesser” species. We are all just animals. Full stop. I say this as a theist.

Why did they feel compelled to pull in a subject that has real-world contention?

There is no real world contention. The world is (roughly) round, species evolve over time, gravity generally pulls stuff toward eachother. None of this is controversial, nor is any of it something that companies need to keep out of their products.

They removed the other bits, why couldn't they remove the portions calling back to evolution. Just because of my faith, am I supposed to just gloss over it and ignore it?

I don’t know your faith, but I somehow doubt evolution existing, of all things, is a bigger deal than black magic wielded by good people, divine nature that is wildly different from any RL faith, humans being created in an extraplanar city run by a goddess of pain, etc.

And this is NOT something I am joking around with.

I’m sorry, but it just isn’t comparable in any way to actual bigotry.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't. I want them to be less like a primate. That is the whole point to me. That they resemble primates is already primed with racially insensitive messaging

PS I love mandrills (go Demogorgon!)

I personally find it completely unacceptable to conclude that there cannot be a race of intelligent simians.

Just don’t make the monkey people also former slaves.

I also have trouble taking the idea that a simian bard with a lute is inherently reminiscent of minstrel shows entirely seriously, though. As with many other things I find absurd, I just have to accept that if it hurts people that hurt is valid and should be respected on some level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because the evolution statement offends me?

If WotC is going to be removing content because it offends individuals, then they can do the same for someone who is buying their product.

<EDIT> And the statement as is in the book, doesn't give a choice on the Hadozee origin. It is a statement of "this is the way it is", rather than allowing the DM/player choose how the Hadozee came to be.

This is not a reasonable demand. Full stop.

Every race in 5e gets presented as their origin story being a fact. You don’t have to follow the book lore, and they encourage you to change whatever you want to suit your needs at the table.

The simple existence of the biological process of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with real world theological debates.

This is no more reasonable than if I were to demand there can never be evil gods because my beliefs make a clear distinction between the gods, who are (fairly) benevolent or at least benign, and other creatures of comparable power who are inherently not gods by virtue of thier antagonism to mortals and to the gods.

Or that they must remove gods with the same names as my gods form their game books, else present them exactly as I see them.

Except I’d never do that, because it would be blatantly ridiculous.