Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

[MarkB]

What gives you the impression that they're ignoring it in total? So far they seem to have been building upon both major and minor elements from both the movies and TV series.

Okay, let's start with this...who is the show catering to?

Is for kids? No...

Is for the long time fans trekkers Maybe...

Is for the casual viewer that don't know the full Lore of Trek? Yes.

They can emulate the feels of Trek, bring up fond memories for those who carry the franchise in their hearts for years upon years. Bu there has been a visual push to forego the nuances of this long legacy, that is very apparent. As I said before, I would like to see the show to be successful. But the one factor that help the show to be greater accepted.

You have to involve the Next Generation pun not intended, the young folks, the kids, and that is not there.

Behind a paywall, dropping curse words, if not seeking to have the show remembered for years to come, not having that great impression that would last in the minds of the many. What would be great about the show after its run, what would stand out and be talked about in the forums, person to person, etc., etc.

To pull a line that shows that there is a minority that does not care for long legacies and seek to tear them down, "Let the Past die, kill it if you have to" is a warning to the legacy bearers, that nothing is sacred anymore. I understand that franchises need to be 'refreshed' for today's current audiences, but the memory of those said franchises, are passed down by those who witness its beginnings, interact with it journey with purchases in the merchandising.

Right now, there is one or two vendor working with the show, the rest want nothing to do with it. They already have stated that the show premise is not recognizable to gain attention to sell stuff, to them. Without this extended avenue to gain traction, interest will wane.

Yes, I do look at this, with market value eyes on witnessing to how sustaining the longevity of this show will pan out. If the market is not biting. How will this show survive?

Ratings alone can't sustain it, it has to be massive multi level in merchandising, so the other effort is to sell to markets like to Amazon or NetFlick or in Canada for viewership. But will that be enough?

Rumor is that for 10 eps, price tag runs at $400 million dollars in total, originally suppose to be 13 eps, but condense down to 10. And for the emotional aspect of this, I am glad it is back, the Trek journey...but it should be reaching out to the younger crowd, the kids.

Right now...it is not doing that.

The past is the connective tissue for the present and the future going forward.

Kill it...

We become lost, without direction.

Take care.

So, basically just your own assumptions rather than anything we've seen on the show, then.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Judging from the license issued to Bad Robot/Secret Hideout....

You've read the contracts? I was under the impression that this show was made by production companies who have access to all of Star Trek. Isn't Secret Hideout just one of the companies producing it?

I am glad it is back, the Trek journey...but it should be reaching out to the younger crowd, the kids. Right now...it is not doing that.

You have access to demographic reach information? There's only been two episodes.

And... My kids are watching it, for whatever that's worth.

Or are you just saying that they're not producing toys? Toys aren't quite the money game they used to be - they cost a lot more to make than they used to. High-end toys can do well, sure, but those sell mostly to adults. A video game might do better. They're probably waiting for the show to gain popularity before selling those kinds of licenses, and I suspect we'll hear about more of that stuff eventually.

Do you work in licensing? It seems like a big concern for you.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Soong's process did not require twins. Data and Lore look identical, but aren't really twins, in the sense they were created at different times. And of course B-4, an inferior model created before Data and Lore, also looks identical to his two younger "brothers". Maddox studied Data to develop his own android process, but it is different than Soong's. Why does Maddox's process create twins? Perhaps we'll learn more . . .

Again, I fully understand that was what was suggested by earlier stories - what I'm saying here is that I believe that it's not impossible that the intention is to retcon that in the new show. I mean, B4 even EXISTING was a retcon in itself, right? Retcons can always go further.

... Unless you're just saying that your personal answer to my question is that you don't think that they're retconning it, and that you believe that Soong's process and Maddox's process are distinct, and this show hasn't changed that. Then, sure, I understand your opinion. Fair enough.

 

[Truth Seeker]

So, basically just your own assumptions rather than anything we've seen on the show, then.

Assumptions? Well, I guess the decades of material proceeding before the PIcard show are all assumptions?

Just like everyone else who is verse in the Trek Lore, from the casual to the deepest, we apply to what we know. So no, I don't do assumptions, I may not know everything outright, but I do know what I have known for the years I have watched the franchise. I don't dismiss what others will say, as long it can hold up to scrutiny.

 

[MarkB]

Assumptions? Well, I guess the decades of material proceeding before the PIcard show are all assumptions?

Just like everyone else who is verse in the Trek Lore, from the casual to the deepest, we apply to what we know. So no, I don't do assumptions, I may not know everything outright, but I do know what I have known for the years I have watched the franchise. I don't dismiss what others will say, as long it can hold up to scrutiny.

So far, you haven't actually articulated any of that, though. You've speculated on what they might do down the line, but you haven't talked specifically about what, in these two specific episodes, you are seeing that suggests that they are ignoring established lore wholesale.

 

[Truth Seeker]

You've read the contracts? I was under the impression that this show was made by production companies who have access to all of Star Trek. Isn't Secret Hideout just one of the companies producing it?



You have access to demographic reach information? There's only been two episodes.

And... My kids are watching it, for whatever that's worth.

Or are you just saying that they're not producing toys? Toys aren't quite the money game they used to be - they cost a lot more to make than they used to. High-end toys can do well, sure, but those sell mostly to adults. A video game might do better. They're probably waiting for the show to gain popularity before selling those kinds of licenses, and I suspect we'll hear about more of that stuff eventually.

Do you work in licensing? It seems like a big concern for you.

Secret Hideout/Bad Robot are license holders to a 25% variant of Star Trek that is currently being disputed

The appearances on the visuals do show otherwise. They are an outside company, not under the portfolio of CBS/Paramount. They do not have full access to the entire library of Trek. There was an high ranking individual in CBS last year that was helping to foster a deeper connection of Prime Trek in the SH production. Those licenses had to be paid for, and the outside studio pony up the money. But things changed when Mrs Redstone gain more control, and that person who was the go between was fired. Kurtzman on his side, reduced paying the license fees to use any more of the Prime Trek stuff, it was simply costing his company money.

And as of last July 2019---the movie license was not renewed by Paramount, the window is growing smaller for BR to make another film, investors are not hoping on board as of late. Updated, the latest attempt to get things moving have reached a impasse.

The Paywall answers that.... and trying to gain traction now, the first eps was released on YouTube a few days ago

When BR first got the license back then. JJA insisted upon CBS to drop immediately of all the Prime Trek merchandise, a 30 to 40 million dollars yearly revenue stream. (this is in print), they bluntly told him NO the cleaner response The Kelvin timeline of Trek video game died, and toys were far and few in-between.

CBS was not giving up that cash flow. That is where JJA later jump to Star Wars, cause he was not going to get a market share on the profits. Repeated--3rd parties want no part of it, and CBS had threaten them with sanctions? But that has not moved them to get on board as of late.

Nope...just pay attention to the trends, listen to many opinions, make a decisive decision based on all able data.

 

[Truth Seeker]

So far, you haven't actually articulated any of that, though. You've speculated on what they might do down the line, but you haven't talked specifically about what, in these two specific episodes, you are seeing that suggests that they are ignoring established lore wholesale.

There are folks on the internet, who have speculated much better than me, and some of their assumptions have proven to be true or near it.

I am not going out of my way, to tear down anyone here, cause I know from my time on this forum. There are very capable individuals who can devise and dissect the show premise and message in greater detail.

I don't have to give a full detail summary to what I feel outright, cause the discussions of what make a show works, have been filtered to a higher degree on EnWorld, for a very long time. If I am questioning the crux of it, cause I want it to be better, than all the previous shows. It will be done so constructively.

If the writers backgrounds were looked at, besides Michael S, do they have a scifi experience, do they have a full understanding to what they are 'preaching' before the masses? And for Eps #1, there was five writers, do you really need five to tell a story?

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Nope...just pay attention to the trends, listen to many opinions, make a decisive decision based on all able data.

That certainly is a mess, but I'm not sure where you get the idea that they can't use characters (such as Lore) from before 2009 in Picard (if that was even what you were saying back there)... because they obviously ARE using characters from before 2009. Like, all of them, except for the ones they're making up.

I must not be entirely following you. (Such is the nature of internet communication).

 

[Dire Bare]

Okay, let's start with this...who is the show catering to?

Is for kids? No...

Is for the long time fans trekkers Maybe...

Is for the casual viewer that don't know the full Lore of Trek? Yes.

They can emulate the feels of Trek, bring up fond memories for those who carry the franchise in their hearts for years upon years. Bu there has been a visual push to forego the nuances of this long legacy, that is very apparent. As I said before, I would like to see the show to be successful. But the one factor that help the show to be greater accepted.

You have to involve the Next Generation pun not intended, the young folks, the kids, and that is not there.

Behind a paywall, dropping curse words, if not seeking to have the show remembered for years to come, not having that great impression that would last in the minds of the many. What would be great about the show after its run, what would stand out and be talked about in the forums, person to person, etc., etc.

To pull a line that shows that there is a minority that does not care for long legacies and seek to tear them down, "Let the Past die, kill it if you have to" is a warning to the legacy bearers, that nothing is sacred anymore. I understand that franchises need to be 'refreshed' for today's current audiences, but the memory of those said franchises, are passed down by those who witness its beginnings, interact with it journey with purchases in the merchandising.

Right now, there is one or two vendor working with the show, the rest want nothing to do with it. They already have stated that the show premise is not recognizable to gain attention to sell stuff, to them. Without this extended avenue to gain traction, interest will wane.

Yes, I do look at this, with market value eyes on witnessing to how sustaining the longevity of this show will pan out. If the market is not biting. How will this show survive?

Ratings alone can't sustain it, it has to be massive multi level in merchandising, so the other effort is to sell to markets like to Amazon or NetFlick or in Canada for viewership. But will that be enough?

Rumor is that for 10 eps, price tag runs at $400 million dollars in total, originally suppose to be 13 eps, but condense down to 10. And for the emotional aspect of this, I am glad it is back, the Trek journey...but it should be reaching out to the younger crowd, the kids.

Right now...it is not doing that.

The past is the connective tissue for the present and the future going forward.

Kill it...

We become lost, without direction.

Take care.

You are making a lot of unsupported claims about the show here, and it's why nobody in the thread seems to be following your train of thought. Now, this is just a casual conversation, you don't have to dig up any hard evidence if you don't want to, but . . . . without some actual evidence of your claims, I just can't buy anything you're selling here.

In my view, this show is clearly aimed at the adult crowd (although I'm sure the showrunners would love younger audiences to join in too), adults who are long-time Star Trek fans, and adults who aren't terribly familiar with Star Trek, but do love good cerebral sci-fi. The writers have a great knowledge of Trek lore, and they are very deliberately building on top of it for this show. The show's premise, if anything, builds too much on Trek lore that it risks losing viewers who haven't watched The Next Generation (my Mom is a bit confused about what's going on). All of my Trekkie friends are excited about the show, my family (non-Trekkies) are watching it, and many of my 13-year-old students are also (I'm a middle-school teacher).

I'm sure we'll get some "collectibles" at some point down the road, if not actual toys, and the lack thereof after 2 episodes doesn't concern me in the least. In the past, one of the only ways to get sci-fi on TV was to aim it at kids and tie-in a toyline, but that's not true anymore and hasn't been for quite some time. Sci-fi showrunners have also been given more power to delay merchandising tie-ins to avoid spoilers (the whole Baby Yoda thing).

And ultimately, Picard isn't a continuation of The Next Generation, not really, despite the main character. It's a different show, a different style of storytelling, aimed at a different audience than sci-fi fans in the late 80s. And it's only one egg in the Star Trek basket, alongside Discovery and the several shows and movies that are in the works right now.

All of the media I've seen so far on Picard has been gushing, the only complaint that comes to mind is the slow-burn of the story (we haven't met most of the characters teased in the trailers yet). I haven't seen any of the negative chatter you reference . . . . although I don't hang out on the Star Trek equivalent to ENWorld (not even sure what that is). I wouldn't be surprised if some cranky Star Trek purists are upset, just as we have a contingent of folks here on ENWorld who manage to find complaints about almost everything WotC does with D&D. But I'm not worried that Picard is in danger! Season 2 is already greenlit, and there's a lot of excited, happy fans tuning in every week as the bio-android mystery deepens.

 

[Dire Bare]

Unless you're just saying that your personal answer to my question is that you don't think that they're retconning it, and that you believe that Soong's process and Maddox's process are distinct, and this show hasn't changed that. Then, sure, I understand your opinion. Fair enough.

Yup, that's it! Sorry I wasn't clear!