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Star Trek Picard SPOILERS thread

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Put it this way, the Moon in Star Trek has multiple cities on it, and it doesn't even have an atmosphere. If Mars was minimally populated, why would they have bothered to terraform it to the extent of having a breathable atmosphere?
I assume Mars has a few domes? Dunno!
 

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I assume Mars has a few domes? Dunno!
I don't think Mars had much more than the shipyard and some other industry. I mean, really, why would anyone want to live on Mars? Even if they terraformed it all the way to atmosphere, it's still got low-gravity. (Though I suppose they have some kind of gravity generators or something.)
 

Vael

Adventurer
Star Trek: First Contact stated that over 50 Million people lived on the moon, I'd assume Mars had a larger population, it's bigger and even more habitable.
 

Star Trek: First Contact stated that over 50 Million people lived on the moon, I'd assume Mars had a larger population, it's bigger and even more habitable.
Yeah, it's better than living on the moon all right (other than proximity to Earth).
 

trappedslider

Adventurer
So,let's look and see what Memory Alpha says about Mars:

Mars was the first planet to be terraformed by Humans. Colonists originally dwelt within domed cities while the verteron array was used to redirect comets and asteroids towards the Red Planet to impact in the polar caps. This freed carbon dioxide and released it into the atmosphere, increasing the planet's temperature and water volume. By 2155, conditions in the lowlands of the Martian surface were sufficiently altered to allow Humans to roam freely without heavy environmental suits, though one would still have to dress warmly for the near-arctic surface temperatures. (ENT: "Demons", "Terra Prime")
[The final draft script of "Terra Prime" explained, "Conditions on partially terraformed Mars are the equivalent of being half a mile higher than Mount Everest."
Based on the planet's appearance in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II", "Relativity", and "Children of Mars", the terraforming of Mars appears to remain incomplete as of 2385.]



And the actual attack on Mars:

Though initial reports estimated over three thousand killed, the death toll was eventually revised to 92,143 in total.
(Star Trek; ST: "Children of Mars"; PIC: "Remembrance", "The End is the Beginning")
 

MarkB

Legend
I don't think Mars had much more than the shipyard and some other industry. I mean, really, why would anyone want to live on Mars? Even if they terraformed it all the way to atmosphere, it's still got low-gravity. (Though I suppose they have some kind of gravity generators or something.)
For a lot of people, lower gravity would be a selling point.
 

For a lot of people, lower gravity would be a selling point.
Maybe in their heads, but I expect we will find all sorts of terrible side-effects. Though I suppose, Star Trekkian medicine can easily deal with those. I doubt it would be comfortable for most people though (and people sure do like their comfort). I mean, look at that description: "half a mile higher than Everest" - that doesn't sound fun to me. Of course, the domes can probably easily dial the gravity up as part of their life-support.

In real life, mark my words: Living on Mars is going to suuuuck. Presumably we will find out soon enough.
 


MarkB

Legend
Maybe in their heads, but I expect we will find all sorts of terrible side-effects. Though I suppose, Star Trekkian medicine can easily deal with those. I doubt it would be comfortable for most people though (and people sure do like their comfort). I mean, look at that description: "half a mile higher than Everest" - that doesn't sound fun to me. Of course, the domes can probably easily dial the gravity up as part of their life-support.

In real life, mark my words: Living on Mars is going to suuuuck. Presumably we will find out soon enough.
That "half a mile higher than Everest" line is about the air pressure, and possibly the temperature, not the gravity. You need to get considerably further away from Earth than a couple of miles before you feel any appreciable decrease in gravity.

Low gravity can exacerbate certain health issues, and has a significant effect on bone and muscle development during childhood, but on the other hand it would also greatly relieve many conditions such as joint pain, high blood pressure and cardiovascular degeneration due to old age, so maybe Mars is just one big retirement community.
 

trappedslider

Adventurer
I would note that time wise, ST:Enterprise takes place long before the attack on Mars,so there is a chance that conditions were different.
Here's a run down of locations on Mars that been mentioned in Star Trek over the years.



so I think it was more than a retirement community.
 

Hussar

Legend
After a certain point, I think that the evacuation of Romulus just has to go in the "suspension of disbelief" file. There are too many unknowns, and, frankly, it wasn't written by scientists, so, it's never going to be very believable once you start drilling down.

If we take the following as given:

1. At some point, more than 14 years ago, Romulus' sun was discovered to be going to go nova and the Federation stepped up to help.
2. For some time, led by Picard, the Federation did help. And this time wasn't a terribly short time either. We see the colony on Vashti 14 years ago and it's not new. They had time to grow fresh fruit after all. They looked pretty settled in in the flashback.
3. 14 years ago, the synthetics rebel and this starts the chain of events that lead the Federation to abandoning the Romulan relief effort. Why is still somewhat unknown - did the destruction of the fleet yards mean that the relief was no longer possible?
4. Picard resigns because of this, leaving the Romulans to their fate. Since he was the face of the Federation during the relief efforts, there are some Romulans who blame him for what the Federation did.

Did I miss any details? To me, this is the important stuff.
 

Did I miss any details? To me, this is the important stuff.
The Star blew up 11 years ago, didn't it? So they still should have had three years?

That "half a mile higher than Everest" line is about the air pressure, and possibly the temperature, not the gravity.
Oh, I know. I see how it could seem like I put the thoughts together. I just mean that half a mile higher than Everest would suck to live on, and I think Mars will suck to live on, IRL. The discussion of gravity was related but separate. But you're probably right - low gravity by itself might not be too bad, if other factors are taken care of, as they surely are in a Star Trek world. And as Morrus pointed out, they've easily solved the gravity issue too!
 

tomBitonti

Explorer
What is the limit on either putting folks into stasis, or on building and moving enormous empty cylinders?

Fabbing cubic miles of cargo space seems within easy reach, assuming minimal amenities and tech in the cylinder itself. I don’t know amount getting something that big into warp. But borg cubes can travel in warp, and the are close to 8 cubic miles of space each.

My biggest problem is that Star Trek usual ability to invent fantastic solution in dire necessity. How about sending a couple of fabricators back in time a couple of decades, with instructions to grow a transport fleet in hiding, then appear when needed?

Thx!
TomB
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
3. 14 years ago, the synthetics rebel and this starts the chain of events that lead the Federation to abandoning the Romulan relief effort. Why is still somewhat unknown - did the destruction of the fleet yards mean that the relief was no longer possible?
Why? Some AI (perhaps Control, from Discovery?) gets wind of how the Romulans hateHateHATE AIs. Feeling the Romulans are a threat, the AI takes a shot at removing them when the chance arises, by curtaining Federation Aid....
 

Hussar

Legend
Heh, @Umbran - likely that "why" is going to be a central issue in the show. :D Was it the Federation? Was it that luddite Romulan faction that hates AI? Someone else? There aren't really a shortage of suspects here. :D

Ok, so, we've got the evacuation on the go previous to year 14 - after all they did have time to settle on Vashti - plus another 3 years without any Federation help.

Given Star Trek level tech, you'd think this is fairly plausible. One other thing that does bug me is that Vashti has now been settled for more than 14 years. Presumably they have replicators. A single Class 4 replicator can kickstart a civilization. 3 were considered sufficient to rebuilt Cardassia (IIRC - my DS9 memory might be failing). Why on earth is Vashti a "wild west" looking location? 14 years of replicator technology and this planet should be rocking at least 21st century technology, if not later. Instead it's dirt streets and open air markets.

This doesn't make a lot of sense.
 

MarkB

Legend
One other thing that does bug me is that Vashti has now been settled for more than 14 years. Presumably they have replicators. A single Class 4 replicator can kickstart a civilization. 3 were considered sufficient to rebuilt Cardassia (IIRC - my DS9 memory might be failing). Why on earth is Vashti a "wild west" looking location? 14 years of replicator technology and this planet should be rocking at least 21st century technology, if not later. Instead it's dirt streets and open air markets.

This doesn't make a lot of sense.
Class 4 replicators are also a Big Deal though, to the extent that (a) the Cardassians, a very advanced civilisation, don't have their own, and have to ask the Federation for them, and (b) when they get stolen, it's not just a simple matter of shipping over a few more from storage.

On Bajor, there's very nearly a civil uprising over the allocation of replicator technology to agricultural regions in order to regenerate land viability. There are only a handful available, and losing one for a few months can make the difference between surviving and going bust.

Basically, domestic and commercial grade replicators are reasonably inexpensive, but scaling them up to industrial grade gets exponentially more costly.
 


Mustrum_Ridcully

Adventurer
What is the limit on either putting folks into stasis, or on building and moving enormous empty cylinders?

Fabbing cubic miles of cargo space seems within easy reach, assuming minimal amenities and tech in the cylinder itself. I don’t know amount getting something that big into warp. But borg cubes can travel in warp, and the are close to 8 cubic miles of space each.
Borg Cubes do that, but one Borg Cube also blew up 39 Starfleet vessels and had sustained practically no damage. Borg technology might not be quite what we're operating at.

Logistics and structural engineering are complicated. "Hey, we can build bridges over rivers, so why not just simply build a bridge from New York to Ireland?" "Hey, we can build factories that produce 1000 cars per day, why not build a factory that produces 1000 aircraft carriers per day?"
"Hey, we can beam away teams of up to 8 people for our daily Final Frontier exploration mission, why not just beam 8,000 people per hour over 3 months without interruption?"

Scale can be important, and turn something simple to something really, really hard to do.

My biggest problem is that Star Trek usual ability to invent fantastic solution in dire necessity. How about sending a couple of fabricators back in time a couple of decades, with instructions to grow a transport fleet in hiding, then appear when needed?

Thx!
TomB
Great idea, isn't that how they won the Dominion War, too?

Oh, wait it's not. I guess casually time traveling is still somewhat... limited. Maybe because it is causally problematic.
 


MarkB

Legend
Great idea, isn't that how they won the Dominion War, too?

Oh, wait it's not. I guess casually time traveling is still somewhat... limited. Maybe because it is causally problematic.
Also, unless your name's Palpatine, you still need an actual industrial base in order to mass-produce starships. You can't just go off and do it in hiding somewhere.
 

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