Star Wars: Andor

[MarkB]

I'm worried we will be entering "hard men making hard decisions" territory, and I'm not crazy about having a Leia supported Rebellion that was cool with the kind of atrocities the Empire commits.

Well, we know from Rogue One that Cassian and many others did things for the sake of the rebellion that they were ashamed of and found it hard to live with.

But we also know that they had some standards and principles, given that Saw Gerrera's group were thrown out for stepping over that line.

 

[Celebrim]

The show is ok, so far. It hasn't hit the high points of The Mandalorian, but has been significantly better than BoBF.

I think that is mostly fair in that I don't feel we have an episode as good as say the best 4 episodes of the Mandalorian. Unfortunately, for me at least, the The Mandalorian wasn't defined by its best 4 episodes any more than the The Last Jedi was defined by its best 2 story beats. The defining moments for me of The Mandalorian were the wretched quality of its worst episodes, such as the season 1 finale.

I'm worried we will be entering "hard men making hard decisions" territory, and I'm not crazy about having a Leia supported Rebellion that was cool with the kind of atrocities the Empire commits.

I think we are already "hard men making hard decisions" territory. Andor is introduced to us in Rogue One as a guy who murders his informant in order to keep the Empire from knowing what the Rebels know. But I don't think is anywhere near the level of atrocities the Empire commits nor is it an act in service to anything like the cause the Empire stands for. So I don't agree with the moral equivalence.

We are introduced to Andor in the show with him again committing a murder. He didn't mean to kill the young officer who hits his head, but the older corrupt officer he has at his mercy and he shoots him. So Andor is definitely not a clear cut good guy. He's not a moral paragon. He's a thief and a murderer, and the fact that the older corrupt officer is a bad guy doesn't change that. But also consider, he has Syril Karn at his mercy and is even told by his superior to kill him, and instead he ties him up. Andor isn't completely ruthless. We're not given the impression he enjoys killing people or that he won't be merciful when he can.

So we have a situation where a guy like Syril Karn is a good guy working for the bad guys, and Cassian Andor is a bad guy working for the good guys. We're definitely in complicated territory.

 

[RuinousPowers]

I think we are already "hard men making hard decisions" territory. Andor is introduced to us in Rogue One as a guy who murders his informant in order to keep the Empire from knowing what the Rebels know. But I don't think is anywhere near the level of atrocities the Empire commits nor is it an act in service to anything like the cause the Empire stands for. So I don't agree with the moral equivalence.

I'm just worried since the more they fill in the gaps between stories, the more they ruin what came before. For me anyway. Like, the end of Rogue One ruins the opening of A New Hope by completely changing the situation. Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.

 

[Nikosandros]

Like, the end of Rogue One ruins the opening of A New Hope by completely changing the situation. Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.

As much as I liked Rogue One, I agree fully with this. I wish they handled the ending and lead-in to Ep IV in a different way.

 

[Dioltach]

Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.

To quote Shaggy: "Say it wasn't you!"

"But they saw us fighting at Scariff!"
"Wasn't me."
"Know we have the transmission!"
"Wasn't me."
"Caught us fleeing the battle!"
"Wasn't me."
"This Rebellion is over!"

Etc.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm just worried since the more they fill in the gaps between stories, the more they ruin what came before. For me anyway. Like, the end of Rogue One ruins the opening of A New Hope by completely changing the situation. Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.

I don't think it changes the situation at all. Rogue One is very much the movie of the opening scrawl of the original Star Wars. Rogue One gives meaning and depth to the introduction to Star Wars in a way nothing else I've seen or read about does.

And frankly, Leia's protestations were always ridiculous and Vader always treated them as such. He's having none of it. He has solid evidence that the plans were abroad this ship. When she tries to give him excuses about her diplomatic status he responds, "You are a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor.", treating her feeble protests for exactly what they are. The dialogue makes perfect sense. Leia doesn't even really expect Vader to listen, they are both just playing their roles. Leia is never going to give anything to the Empire or concede anything. To the extent she has a plan at this point it's to stay alive long enough to get rescued by Obi Wan or failing that hope for a public trial that can grow sympathy for the rebellion.

What it might do is change your own fan fiction, the backstory you had written for yourself of the scene. But I don't think your fan fiction has stronger textual support than the backstory given in Rogue One.

 

[billd91]

As much as I liked Rogue One, I agree fully with this. I wish they handled the ending and lead-in to Ep IV in a different way.

I agree. I think they wanted to ramp up the excitement as Vader pursues the soldiers trying to hand off the data doohickey. But it could have been handled pretty easily by having the Tantive IV in high orbit itself, observing the battle, and getting the data transmission of the plans before jumping out of the system.

 

[Celebrim]

I agree. I think they wanted to ramp up the excitement as Vader pursues the soldiers trying to hand off the data doohickey. But it could have been handled pretty easily by having the Tantive IV in high orbit itself, observing the battle, and getting the data transmission of the plans before jumping out of the system.

I don't think that changes anything. Tantive IV is still at the battle. Vader still has his solid evidence of which ship got the data transmission. The conversation between Leia and Vader still plays out the same were Leia is lying and probably doesn't even expect anyone to believe her lies, and Vader still treats her protests as feeble.

But I think Rogue One still patches more plot holes than it opens. For example, Rogue One tells us that the plans involve so much data that they aren't easily transmitted by subspace or hyperspace relay. You need special communication gear to transmit the plans in a timely fashion. This means that Leia or anyone else can't just get the plans to the alliance by publically broadcasting them. The physical copy of the plans is valuable, which is something that made sense back in the 1970's but which isn't obvious in today's era of fast internet. But it isn't unreasonable that faster than light communication has limited bandwidth in a way that fiber optic cable isn't. As a Star Wars D6 GM, things that make the universe work coherently are welcome, because Star Wars has never really been science fiction you can't really pay too much attention to realism when running it, but it is nice to have some gloss as it were.

I really felt Rogue One explained Star Wars in a way that there was less fridge logic moments than before, so that you watch Rogue One and go "Oh, so that's why..."

 

[RuinousPowers]

I don't think it changes the situation at all. Rogue One is very much the movie of the opening scrawl of the original Star Wars. Rogue One gives meaning and depth to the introduction to Star Wars in a way nothing else I've seen or read about does.

And frankly, Leia's protestations were always ridiculous and Vader always treated them as such. He's having none of it. He has solid evidence that the plans were abroad this ship. When she tries to give him excuses about her diplomatic status he responds, "You are a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor.", treating her feeble protests for exactly what they are. The dialogue makes perfect sense. Leia doesn't even really expect Vader to listen, they are both just playing their roles. Leia is never going to give anything to the Empire or concede anything. To the extent she has a plan at this point it's to stay alive long enough to get rescued by Obi Wan or failing that hope for a public trial that can grow sympathy for the rebellion.

What it might do is change your own fan fiction, the backstory you had written for yourself of the scene. But I don't think your fan fiction has stronger textual support than the backstory given in Rogue One.

There is a difference between attacking a ship you suspect has the secret plans and attacking a ship that was fleeing a battle. I feel it fundamentally changes the opening, from the Empire attacking a diplomatic vessel in open space, to the Empire attacking a hostile rebel vessel they pursued from a battle. In one scenario Vader has accusations, in the second he has proof.

 

[Celebrim]

There is a difference between attacking a ship you suspect has the secret plans and attacking a ship that was fleeing a battle. I feel it fundamentally changes the opening, from the Empire attacking a diplomatic vessel in open space, to the Empire attacking a hostile rebel vessel they pursued from a battle. In one scenario Vader has accusations, in the second he has proof.

Vader acts like he has proof in the original conception, and we the audience know that he's right. He's not frustrated because he has mistakenly attacked a diplomatic ship. He's frustrated because he can't find the plans that he knows are here. He never for a second acts like he's acting on a hunch and he's not conducting this operation like diplomatic niceties are in play, because they aren't. If nothing else, the Tantive IV was firing on his Star Destroyer. They weren't acting like, "Oh, we're going to be boarded and then we'll run a diplomatic bluff and pretend innocence." at any point. So again, we seem to be fighting against your fan fiction here, and not what is shown on film in the original 1977 release.