D&D 5E Strength-based Rogue archetype, feedback much appreciated!

[Bacon of immorality]

So Rogues are baller and all that but why can't they have a bit more brutal approach? Why can't they wield REAL weapons and wear REAL armor? Or perhaps go to the gym a few times a week? Why can't a Rogue impress the common folks with their bulging biceps? "Of course they can!" Yes, Jimmy, you are completely right. Of course a rogue could max their Strength and leave their Dexterity at a mediocre level, there's nothing against that in the rule book. A wizard can max charisma first and a Barbarian can go all out for that sweet sweet Wisdom. But why would they though, Jimmy? Why would they? "Because not all players are Min-Maxing a**faces like you!" Well that sure is true Jimmy, you little rascal you! "And leather IS REAL armor!" Well I don't know about that Jimmy boy, but if you're into that kinda thing that's completely fine, I don't judge.

So my question is, can we find a middle ground? Is it possible to make a Strength-based Rogue that feels enjoyable to play while still being a viable choice compared to other rogue archetypes? Or compared to other Classes, for that matter?
The following is my attempt at it. I'm no dnd expert, nor a number cruncher and above all certainly no master at wording.
I'm grateful for all/any form of constructive feedback so if you have thoughts or ideas feel free to enlighten me! Especially if you see this and think " son, did this guy skip elementary school or what?". Or perhaps "This guy's no wizard, he don't even know how to spell!" (sorry for that one folks).

TL;DR
I'm trying to make a Strength-based Rogue archetype that feels fun and rewarding to play while still not being utter sh*t nor OP as h*ll. Feedback is gold, feel free to gild me! And yes, I know that this "isn't optimal" or that "Rogues need the D(exterity) man, are you stupid or what?". You don't have to tell me that good sir or madam, I know.

So yeah, lend me your thoughts would you kindly and let's see what grotesque table-flippery we can throw together!


Brutal Genius

Force Over Finesse
Starting at 3rd level, you’re tired of dancing around people all day trying to poke ‘em with you overgrown toothpick. Your Sneak Attack feature is replaced by the Brutal Attack feature instead. The Brutal Attack feature works exactly like the Sneak Attack feature, with the following exceptions:

• You don't need a Finesse or a ranged weapon to use your Brutal Attack.
• You don't need advantage on your attack roll to use your Brutal Attack if the attack is made using a two-handed weapon or a versatile weapon held in both hands.
• You can use your Brutal Attack only when you attack using Strength.

Also, the normal and long range of non-finesse thrown weapons are doubled for you.

Martial Training
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with martial weapons and medium Armor.

Professional Vandal
Starting at 9th level, objects within 5 feet of you (the object must be neither being worn nor carried by another creature) are subject to your Brutal Attack. Also, your weapon attacks can critically hit objects on attack rolls of 19 or 20.

Vigorous Body
By 13th level, you have acquired greater physical strength. You gain proficiency in Strength saving throws.

A Masterpiece in Violence
When you reach 17th level, you have become a destructive force to be reckoned with. As well as a true genius (or at least in your own eyes). You gain the following benefits:

• You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn if both attacks are made using Strength.
• Your Brutal Attacks damage dice changes from d6 to d8.
• You can use your Brutal Attack feature when you attack with unarmed strikes.
  
  (To be able to make two attacks + having the damage dice bumped may be a bit too much, I'm not quite sure. If that's the case then it could be changed to "make another attack as a bonus action" instead.)

 

[Scott Steven Bell]

I would think a Brutal Thief/Thug would be a fighter or barbarian with a few levels of rogue. /shrugs

 

[Scott Steven Bell]

The more I think about it the more I think this could be a Fighter archetype.
A fighter with a few roguish qualities and perhaps sneak attack (that does subdual damage), move silently in heavy armor bonuses with martial dice per rest.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

why can't they have a bit more brutal approach? Why can't they wield REAL weapons and wear REAL armor? Or perhaps go to the gym a few times a week? Why can't a Rogue impress the common folks with their bulging biceps?

Because then they would be a Barbarian?

The archetype of "real weapons and real armour and big –ing weapons" is covered by Barbarian and Fighter.

 

[Slit518]

And then there was this guy.

Letho, from the Witcher 2.

https://orig03.deviantart.net/5684/f/2014/106/1/0/letho_render_by_scratcherpen-d7eny76.jpg

 

[mellored]

And then there was this guy.

Letho, from the Witcher 2.

https://orig03.deviantart.net/5684/f/2014/106/1/0/letho_render_by_scratcherpen-d7eny76.jpg

Looks like an eldrich knigh to me.

 

[CapnZapp]

Of course there can be a Strength based rogue. The Brutish Scoundrel I believe 3e called it.

There's no reason it couldn't make a comeback, assuming enough people want it to.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Zardnaar]

We have a build. I'll post it latter.

 

[SmokeyCriminal]

I think Force Over Finesse is too cluttered and weird. Keep it simple, You want this rogue to not be limited to finesse then just say "sneak attack doesn't require finesse."
I don't agree with the second bullet point, the whole versatile or two-handed thing, it feels like it narrows your options right when you expanded them and favours specific builds over others. It feels like your saying "If your not using a Greatclub/sword/axe then you can't have this benefit." what about dual wielding hand axes? which Id argue are more "iconic" Brute rogues then Greatsword rogues. The Swashbuckler already has the one-on-one thing, and I don't think you need it anyway. Or at the very least get rid of the weapon restriction.
Maybe if your looking for a new sneak attack mechanic don't incentivize one-on-one situations, Incentivize Brawl situations. Like, let sneak attack also trigger when a Foe or Ally is within 5 feet of the creature, or maybe when more then one foe is engaged in melee with you you trigger sneak attack without advantage or an ally, so the Brute Rogue does better when hes out numbered or alone with his back against the wall kinda thing, and specifically throws himself at crowds of baddies. IDK, just remember that mechanics like sneak attack are incentive rewards. What situations do you want this class to specifically look for, get into, and create in fights.
The bullet point about only Strength thing looks like its there just so you can't use range weapons, which I don't entirely agree with, because I think a Heavy Cross Bow Sneak Attacking Rogue is very cool and Thug/Brute but if you want to incentivize Melee then thats fine. But the double range to thrown weapons seems like its just there to make up for taking away Bows, you don't need it. It muddies the concept, this isn't a knife/axe thrower specialist rogue, you should get rid of it. It sucks that this rogue will have range but you have Bonus Action Dash so your not SOL like the Pally or Fighter.

Professional Vandal is really cool i really like how sneak attack applies. The wording is a little funny, instead of the 5 feet things, just say something like when you hit an object that isn't carried or worn with a melee weapon, instead. And I get what your trying to do with the expanded crit range but it feels niche. I think there is a siege damage mechanic where it does double damage to objects and structures, I think you should use that and say "you do double damage to objects." We want the Brute to be able to, and want to, break stuff, so lets let him, and just get rid of the crit thing.

Vigorous Body is the only thing I know for a fact, 100%, you can't keep. In two more levels you get Wisdom saving throws that means the Brute would have 4 out of the 6 saves. Plus there is a Feat that gives you a Proficiency save of your choice, and the rogue has one extra ASI then everyone else, which means you can EASILY have proficiency for 5 out of the 6 saves. I get what your trying to accomplish with it, but this is the wrong way to do it.

Masterpiece in Violence feels...idk. I like the the concept of the dice bump, but my first thought was also, "who has more then a pair of D8s at most?" I know it sounds petty but 9 D8! and EXTRA ATTACK doesn't suck, and the damage itself isn't really the issue, its actually negligible for a rogue. when I see it I don't think "oohh an extra 10 point of damage" I think "oooh an extra chance for sneak attack." Do you know what I mean? Plus this should be the culmination of specifically the Brute rogue it should be more unique then just more damage in and of itself.

Personally the way I would rearrange your build, kinda off the top of my head, is;

3rd lvl
Just get rid of the Finesse restriction
Martial Training and medium armour
Professional Vandal (with double damage instead of expanded crit. Plus I want the player to consider busting down the door rather then picking the lock as soon as possible)
add Cunning Action Escape from Grapples ( I just thought of it and it feels really brawler and rouge-ish)
add No disadvantage from medium armour stealth (just cuz I think a Brute should still be a little sneaky-ish)
no double range throw weapons
(no range weapon restrictions but either is fine, it just depends how much you want to emphasize melee)

9th lvl
Cunning Action Shove (for the advantage and slight damage bust and to make him fight like a cheap shot brawler)

13th lvl
Advantage on Strength checks and saves (It steps on the toes of the Barb but he had it since first level and is proficient in Strength so hes still better. But I still think it does what you want without messing anything up)

17th lvl
????
Extra Attack?
Advantage on attacks when in melee with more then one creature?
(IDK the capstone needs more oomph it needs a cool shtick)

Plus there is also the dice bump, I thought maybe a bump from D6 to D8 at 9th and then another at 13th or 17th? idk just the idea of D10 sneak attack felt really cool. A dice bump is essential 1 extra point per dice, and no one complains about the rogues doing too much damage at mid level. And I feel like you can do something with Intimidation. Also maybe it needs more ribbons?

 

[Zardnaar]

The Brutal Rogue 5E

One key point about finesse weapons is you can use dex or strength with them. This means a strength based Rogue has to use things like Daggers, Rapiers, Shortswords etc.

For this you default to rapier.

Rogues are also a bit meh in the damage dealing department (if feats are used) especially when they miss sneak attack damage (it happens). The solution is to multiclass into fighter or better yet start as fighter. You wear heavy armor and give up on the stealth part of the Rogues thing, Dex is now a tertiary stat at best (so medium armor might be half decent). Either way the fighter benefits assuming you MC into Rogue.

1. Heavy armor.
2. Weapon Style. Hint pick duelist.
3. Better saves (str+con>dex+int).
4. Martial weapons (read longbows)
5. Second wind (mostly eh but hey its a freebie)

If Variant human take Shield Master Feat

MC into Rogue, take expertise in athletics and whatever else you like.

With the default array (16 strength) you now have athletics skill of +7 at level 2. At level 5 this is now +10. Use shield master to knock opponents prone which enables sneak attack. You can also have an AC of 20 easily enough and pick up +2 damage off duellist and provide your own advantage.