Strength, virtual size categories, and house rules

[CRGreathouse]

Think of it this way: A 10'x10'x10' Granite block weighs 137,000 lbs. (Average based on some density calculations) Just touching that block won't hurt you. But it it is moving, and it collides with you, that energy has to be transfered to you.
A falling block goes faster the longer it falls until it reaches terminal velocity. Instead of looking at the falling itself as the source of the damage, physics should say that since accelleration multiplies the inherrent energy of the object due to it's mass.
So I look at terminal velocity and falling damage like this: A multiplier. At rest, and objects falling multiplier is 0. Little energy, asside from electron movement. But if it starts to fall, the thing gains energy. A stone of that size will have much more energy that a feather, despite having fallen the same distance. Thusly, the falling cannot be anything more than a multiplier.
(Lets say for arguements sake that each 10' fallen = an increase in the multiplier by .05 for now)

Actually, I don't think the base should be a multiplier of 0. I think that the base should be the damage you'd take if the granite block were gently placed on you (mathematically, think of it as the limit of the damage as the distance dropped tends toward zero from the right). I'm not sure how this should work out in terms of force and KE, but just consider your example: a 60-ton granite block would crush you no matter how slowly it was set on you.

So after an object reaches it's "terminal velocity" (200' fallen in d20 if I recall) it should output the maximum amount of energy (d6's of damage) possible for it's mass. Likewise, the damage multiplier I proposed is something along the lines of x1.0 at this point.

Yep.

So falling damage rules would need to be slightly restructured. Weight needs to be more important than distance fallen.

For a simple system, height could set the size of the dice (d20 or d12 = terminal) and weight could set the number of dice (no limit). A more complicated system would use the damage from static normal force (mentioned above) and your multiplier. A yet more complicated system would 'ease into' terminal velocity rather than using a linear progression with a cap.

The D&D assumption that damage ~ height up to terminal velocity is reasonable, assuming damage ~ KE. Falling a distance of D, the time for the fall can be calculated from D=1/2gt^2, which when combined with KE = 1/2mv^2 gives the amusing acrostic KE = Dmg, or simply KE ~ D. Does that look right?

Terminal velocity I believe* (Can't back this up) is different for every object. A feather will never fall very fast because it is not very dense and very air-resistant.

Quite correct. Friction essentially varies with the cross-sectional area of the object, smoothness held constant.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Now the problem with changing the damage rules is that its a disaster spiral waiting to happen. Then you'll need to rework the amount of hit dice/hit points everything has. Which will just get ugly real quick.

I, like you, don't want to change the essential damage rule from (dice) + (Str mod) * (mult). You decided to change falling damage; I chose to change carrying capacity. Both accomplish the main goal without altering the core damage rules. I believe mine also has various good effects, like keeping numbers reasonable and not requiring the crazy densities you postulate (c.f. my comments above about comic-book similarities).

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Actually, I don't think the base should be a multiplier of 0. I think that the base should be the damage you'd take if the granite block were gently placed on you (mathematically, think of it as the limit of the damage as the distance dropped tends toward zero from the right). I'm not sure how this should work out in terms of force and KE, but just consider your example: a 60-ton granite block would crush you no matter how slowly it was set on you.
...

I simply wanted to note that something not moving or falling at all should deal 0% damage. Being slowly lowered ontop of you means it is moving. In this case, avalanch/cave-in rules should apply (which after a game I ran, I also found laughably survivable) or that the situation should follow some special unique rules. It could work like progressive damage, starting at 1d6 and increasing every round perhaps for a steady crushing effect, or a simple amount of base damage. (say minimum for 10' fall, of 13d6, but count it as a coup de grace. DC = 10+damage dealt. Inescapable crushing death. If you live, its worse, because you may suffocate.)

Perhaps I should write a book, Physics for D20 )) Detailing revised rules for more accurate fantasy.

As for your formulae, sadly, due to the wonders of the American Education system and the red tape my district decided to wrap around me, (my district reasoned that my 'disability' of very poor handwriting due to lack of fine motor skills, possibly stemming from muscle development, disqualified me from taking the higher ranked classes.) I was never able to take a single physics class, so largly your physical constants have no meaning to me, but the formulaes 'look' like they make sense. Most of my knowledge physical sciences are self taught and are understood in more general terms; I like reading things on quantum science and theoretical science. My logic is that if I can understand what Stephen Hawkings is saying in his lectures and when he infers a formula, I should be able to comprehend more 'down to earth' science.

 

[WarDragon]

I, like you, don't want to change the essential damage rule from (dice) + (Str mod) * (mult). You decided to change falling damage; I chose to change carrying capacity. Both accomplish the main goal without altering the core damage rules. I believe mine also has various good effects, like keeping numbers reasonable and not requiring the crazy densities you postulate (c.f. my comments above about comic-book similarities).

So... without being denser, how is it possible for Medium creatures to have Strength in excess of 25 (base 18 + 2 racial + 5 level) without it going away in anti-magic/dead magic?

 

[Phantom Llama]

So... without being denser, how is it possible for Medium creatures to have Strength in excess of 25 (base 18 + 2 racial + 5 level) without it going away in anti-magic/dead magic?

Stronger muscle fibre.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I recall reading an article in my local newspaper about "superstrength." It was back when all the super hero movies were coming out a few years back. Their research said people like the hulk who get stronger by getting bigger are impossible.

Their research (I say theirs because I didn't think much of the article at the time so I can't verify) said that 'strength' was based on muscle surface area vs volume. In reality, as you get bigger, the ammount of surface area on your muscles increases at a linear rate, but the volume of the muscle, which contributes to weight and energy consuption, increases quadratically. This accounts how beings like ants and insects can lift far more than their body weight without expending massive ammounts of energy.

If you wanted to be "really accurate" anything that gets bigger should have a lower carrying capacity for it's strength. (And eventually it would decrease to the point where one could not lift themselves) Look at atoms: the ammount of energy it takes to seperate two is rediculous! But this line of thought makes all the cool things in D&D impossible, like dragons.

So the sciences of "strength" include:
1 - "Just because"
2 - Muscle Density
3 - Strong Muscle Fibers
4 - "Magic" (or other spell-like magical adaptation)
5 - "Ki" (or other supernatural adaptation)
6 - Muscle Surface Area (Makes everything cool impossible)

 

[Phantom Llama]

When Haruhi reorganised the universe into D&D, the first thing she got rid of was scaling.

 

[Kalitharus]

Early D+D falling rule.

Falling damage in traditional D+D (the early 80's with Mystara) has always been 1d6 dmg per 10 feet fallen, with the maximum of 20d6 dmg at terminal velocity.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

Stronger muscle fibre.

One of the problems I have with stronger muscle fibers (as opposed to greater density), is that when beings with super strength hit each other their blows should knock the opponent to the horizon. With even less than 50 strength, an opponent of normal mass (200 lbs) will be the equivalent of 1 lb to a character of normal human strength. Every hit landed is going to be followed by the exclamation "HOME RUN!"