Summon Monster Question (alignment-related question)

[THAC0]

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly...

I have a player who is Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Oldimmarra (sp?)...

He wanted to cast Summon Monster II and summon a Lemure. The description of the spell states that summoning that type of creature makes the spell be considered Chaotic Evil (or was it Lawful Evil? I forget...). Anyway, I ruled that it is against his alignment to do so and that he would have to summon something non-evil or his alignment might change because he would be technically casting an "evil spell". So he went ahead and summoned a Celestial Eagle instead...

So my question is, how does this work? When a character wants to Summon a Creature that isagainst their alignment (ie Lawful Good Cleric trying to summon a Chaotic Evil creature). Do you allow this but change that player's alignment? Does their god refuse to allow them to summon that creature? What if the player is True Neutral? Can they only summon TN creatures? I am confused on how the alignment of the summoned creature affects the outcome of the spell or the alignment of the caster.

 

[The Sigil]

My suggestion is:
1.) A character can summon a creature of an alignment one step (defined as moving either one step along the law-chaos axis or one step along the good-evil axis but not both) away from his own... for example, a CN cleric can summon a CN monster, a CE, CG or N monster.
2.) A cleric can only summon monsters of an alignment allowed for Clerics of his deity... a CG deity will allow his clerics to summon CN, CG, or NG monsters, for instance.
3.) A cleric casting a summoning must summon a creature that satisfies both (1) and (2) above. So a CN cleric who follows a CG deity may only summon CG and CN monsters. The deity is willing to grant NG monsters but the difference in alignments is too great. Similarly, the cleric might want to summon an N or CE monster but the deity won't grant it.

My 2 cents.

--The Sigil

 

[hong]

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly...

I have a player who is Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Oldimmarra (sp?)...

He wanted to cast Summon Monster II and summon a Lemure. The description of the spell states that summoning that type of creature makes the spell be considered Chaotic Evil (or was it Lawful Evil? I forget...). Anyway, I ruled that it is against his alignment to do so and that he would have to summon something non-evil or his alignment might change because he would be technically casting an "evil spell". So he went ahead and summoned a Celestial Eagle instead...

The cleric can't cast spells (or summon creatures) of an alignment opposed to his alignment, or that of his deity's. In the default D&D cosmology, Neutral isn't opposed to anything, either in terms of Law/Chaos or Good/Evil. Since Olidammara is Neutral in terms of Good/Evil, the cleric could summon anything on the Good-Evil axis. However, since Oli is Chaotic, the cleric could only summon non-Lawful creatures.

You're free to change that, of course; for example, you could say that Neutral is more closely aligned to Good than Evil, in which case a Neutral cleric could cast Good but not Evil spells.

So my question is, how does this work? When a character wants to Summon a Creature that isagainst their alignment (ie Lawful Good Cleric trying to summon a Chaotic Evil creature). Do you allow this but change that player's alignment? Does their god refuse to allow them to summon that creature?

It doesn't work, full stop.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

The cleric can't cast spells (or summon creatures) of an alignment opposed to his alignment, or that of his deity's. In the default D&D cosmology, Neutral isn't opposed to anything, either in terms of Law/Chaos or Good/Evil. Since Olidammara is Neutral in terms of Good/Evil, the cleric could summon anything on the Good-Evil axis. However, since Oli is Chaotic, the cleric could only summon non-Lawful creatures.

That's a bingo - and the GM that you are was right as the Lemure is a LE creature - specifically a type of Devil.

Just have to pick this apart...

1.) A character can summon a creature of an alignment one step (defined as moving either one step along the law-chaos axis or one step along the good-evil axis but not both) away from his own... for example, a CN cleric can summon a CN monster, a CE, CG or N monster.
2.) A cleric can only summon monsters of an alignment allowed for Clerics of his deity... a CG deity will allow his clerics to summon CN, CG, or NG monsters, for instance.
3.) A cleric casting a summoning must summon a creature that satisfies both (1) and (2) above. So a CN cleric who follows a CG deity may only summon CG and CN monsters. The deity is willing to grant NG monsters but the difference in alignments is too great. Similarly, the cleric might want to summon an N or CE monster but the deity won't grant it.

problems with 1:
This creates the problem of "Opposed Neutrality" for casters of True Neutral alignment. While possible, this is not the ONLY valid interpretation of True Neutral. This is a common "hangover" I see in 1e players.

problems with 2 and 3;
This could be EXTREMELY problematic in the case of some of the deities who only allow two alignments, as well as clerics whose deity is true neutral. Either situation creates the possibility of a cleric who may only summon creatures of two alignments. Particularly with a deity such as Obad-Hai - this has a whole lot of potential to create massive problems for players with some of the upper level summoning spells.

 

[Larcen]

Yeah, ok, this all sounds logical for clerics, but what about non-clerics? How strict should the DM be for them? Are there rules/suggestions to help with this?

I would think that the DM should treat it like the PC has done an alignment opposed act. No more, no less. That is, look at the big picture and judge accordingly. One evil act does not an alignment change make. However, the player should be told he is on notice or something and that soon all those demons and devils he keeps summoning are gonna start reserving a private little place for him back home. In fact, better yet, the DM shouldn't put him on notice, THEY should...

 

[Li Shenron]

Arcane spellcasters are free to summon anything...

 

[Magus_Jerel]

There was a thread in house rules concerning an objective alignment system Larcen.

If you were using it - yeah... casting spells with said descriptor probably could move your alignment.

 

[Gromm]

Didn't the old Dragonlance (1e) book have a chart for that?
It was a cool idea, but waaaay too much paperwork in practice.
Not to mention it was easy to do something terrible once in a while because you'd "built up" alot of good.

"Sure I killed the family and took thier family heirloom, but I just saved a whole village and gave them a bunch of gold. I even saved the cows. I'm due for some evil. Besides I'm still Good, and I'll be nice for a little while more."

Didn't always make good roleplaying sense. Someone who was a saint would usually feel the need to do something bad because they could "get away with it".

 

[Zhure]

A sliding point-based system works for alignment if the penalty for doing evil when you're good is greater than when you're neutral.

Beasts Men and Gods (an old old old game system) had a method of assigning points to a goodness stat. When it was negative, you were evil, when it was positive, you were good. If it was between 10 and negative 10, you were neutral.

The system broke down for the very reasons mentioned. Now if any non-neutral character took double points penalty for doing a deed opposed to their alignment, it would work better. Thus, Saintly Good would be tough to maintain and easy to lose.

Something like that....
Greg