D&D 5E Swordmage! (+thread)

[Umbran]

On the subject of + threads, they have already been a thing. I didn’t report frog for a reason.

Mod note:
As always, if you want to discuss moderation, take it to PM. Those are the board rules. Arguing in-thread is not how we are going to do this.

The fact of the matter, as you may surmise, is that your "asking to be cool" came across as you being kind of a controlling jerk, and got you reported. So, enter any further discussion about this with that in mind. And take it out of thread.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

A protector/shielding subclass should have very nice armor class

The I am all about hurting the enemy flavored one (who probably teleports even more) not necessarily

Yeah, the protector one should definitely get extra defense, or DR, or something, to accomplish it's goal of protection.

An all out assault circle should be where full paladin damage comes in, if it does, or be more in line with a damage focused ranger or monk subclass.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

@FrogReaver to be perfectly clear, if I didn't want your input in this thread, I'd have just ignored you the first time we butted heads ITT. I know you like the basic idea of a swordmage (name nonwithstanding), which is what makes it frustrating. I'd like to hear your thoughts on actual specific mechanics, like whether the Aegis should function like a fighting style or like a stance, or what some good techniques would be. Your input on skills has been noted and further discussion invited in the update to the OP.

I just don't see the usefulness of harping on the idea that the class is OP when it isn't even 1% designed, yet.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay here is the idea so far. Note that all names other than Swordmage, and Aegis, are up for debate, but should live in the same conceptual space.

HD d10
No armor, no shields
Most weapons
Skills 2 or 3 from a broad list
Tools calligrapher’s (for drawing those fighting manual diagrams)

maybe 2 skills and a feature similar to jack of all trades but less extreme in scope. Then again, give this guy Counterspell and dispel magic and jack of all trades, why not right?

we can determine the full scope there as the class develops.

Level 1:
Aegis. As a ten minute ritual you can perform as part of a rest or as a bonus action by spending X [points], you can cast a specialized version of Mage Armor, giving yourself AC equal to 13+Int mod. This may scale at the main tier levels, or not. Choice of 2-4 Aegis features that give different defensive benefits, and attune you to a damage type.

Bond-Weapon. Similar to Hexblade, pct blade, or Eldritch Knight weapon, but tuned toward a specific weapon type. Thrown weapons throw farther, one handed Melee gain thrown (30/60), ranged weapons lose the ammunition property, not sure about two-handed weapons. Any thrown weapon returns to your hand after thrown. Weapon does the damage type you’re attuned to instead of its normal damage. Can reforged a lost or broken Bond-Weapon as a 1 hour ritual.

Level 2:

Hermetic Geometry. ritual casting and Esoteric Techniques. “Points, Brendin. Points.” You get points, and things to use them on. You record these techniques in a book, called a Manual Esoterica, or something like that. You learn a number at 2nd level, and 1 at each level thereafter, and can learn more by training with a master or finding and studying a manual that describes the technique.

Wild idea!
What if, instead of starting with a lot of proficiencies, the class gets jack of all trades, possibly renamed to Enlightened Study or soemthing, and they can learn new weapons, languages, and tools, the same way they learn techniques? (So, same modeled after ritual caster feat)

we would probably want to define different time and money costs, and maybe even track how many you’ve learnt and make the cost and time increase or something, but I think it would perfectly encapsulate the idea of a renaissance master who seeks knowledge in a wide range of topics and skills.

Something to consider.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Just throwing out a brainstorming suggestion.

Aegis: What if the Aegis giving you the Mage Armor equivalent was instead one of the "choices" that the SM gets to choose to apply to their Aegis. This way a SM who does wear heavy armor (due to feat choice, multiclassing, or just fluff reasoning) can still be built. They could instead spend the "Aegis" pick on something else. This would allow a greater variety of martial types to also be SMs.

Bond-Weapon: I would be tempted to lump the "feature choices" into either enhancing the armor/defense as above or their attacks under this rule. Basically you say "At the beginning of the day the SM chooses a subset of X abilities from their larger set of "learned abilities" to be always on with no concentration necessary. This way each SM can pick and choose daily what powers they have access to similar to a wizard but still be somewhat bound why what knowledge they have learned, also similar to a wizard.

Hermetic Geometry: Whereas the first two power are choosing some ALWAYS ON enhancements to apply to the character at the beginning of the day, this is where your equivalent of KI points shows up. I would tend to give less points in the pool but allow them to refill with a short rest (like KI) rather than long rest (like paladin smite). I would lean towards making a bespoke list of always available spells determined by the SM's subclass rather than it being customizable.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Just throwing out a brainstorming suggestion.

Aegis: What if the Aegis giving you the Mage Armor equivalent was instead one of the "choices" that the SM gets to choose to apply to their Aegis. This way a SM who does wear heavy armor (due to feat choice, multiclassing, or just fluff reasoning) can still be built. They could instead spend the "Aegis" pick on something else. This would allow a greater variety of martial types to also be SMs.

Bond-Weapon: I would be tempted to lump the "feature choices" into either enhancing the armor/defense as above or their attacks under this rule. Basically you say "At the beginning of the day the SM chooses a subset of X abilities from their larger set of "learned abilities" to be always on with no concentration necessary. This way each SM can pick and choose daily what powers they have access to similar to a wizard but still be somewhat bound why what knowledge they have learned, also similar to a wizard.

Hermetic Geometry: Whereas the first two power are choosing some ALWAYS ON enhancements to apply to the character at the beginning of the day, this is where your equivalent of KI points shows up. I would tend to give less points in the pool but allow them to refill with a short rest (like KI) rather than long rest (like paladin smite). I would lean towards making a bespoke list of always available spells determined by the SM's subclass rather than it being customizable.

I do want them to be able to learn new techniques (including spells) and add them to their Manual Esoterica, so I'd go with less of a curated list per subclass, and more of a list they can choose from to know. I think a mix of wizard's learning spells and Known Spells casters, rather than preparing, maybe?

Well...no, that would lead to either too few or too many options....

OKay, so they can learn new techniques from others and from manuals, they prepare like a prepared caster, but their subclass (and maybe aegis) give some "always prepared" spells. List as big as the Paladin, but you don't know all of them like the paladin does. You know a few at first level, gain 1 or 2 per level of your choice, and can learn more the hard way.

I am fine with choosing your active benefits during a rest, but I'd also enjoy treating them like stances...I'll build it with a choice during a rest or as a 10 minute ritual, to start with.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

@doctorbadwolf - fyi, the reason I am not contributing to the thread is that I don't really understand the concept of swordmage, other than a general Gish or F/MU.

That's fair.

What about the hermetic swordmasters of the middle ages and renaissance? Are you familiar with Thibault's Circle, or the works of Agrippa? Basically, the idea is that hermetic mysticism, mathematics, and physical sciences, are part of a truly fully developed martial tradition. In dnd, I figure that includes actual magic, mostly of the ritual variety, and some swordfighting techniques that are magical.

The image, for lack of a better word, is a wandering weapon-master who is writing their own grimoire of martial and magical esoterica, learning new techniques and mysteries to add to their book, and perhaps eventually teaching others in turn.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Witchers are very similar in concept. They have martial fighting skills, backed up by magic abilities (but not bombastic spells, just combat tricks) and magical alchemy. Different than Fighter/Wizard or really any class that uses "spells per day".

 

[TwoSix]

Witchers are very similar in concept. They have martial fighting skills, backed up by magic abilities (but not bombastic spells, just combat tricks) and magical alchemy. Different than Fighter/Wizard or really any class that uses "spells per day".

I'll toss a coin to this concept.