D&D 5E Swordmage! (+thread)

[Garthanos]

Witchers are very similar in concept. They have martial fighting skills, backed up by magic abilities (but not bombastic spells, just combat tricks) and magical alchemy. Different than Fighter/Wizard or really any class that uses "spells per day".

It certainly has the ritual element down...

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The 4 Elements Monk setup of spellcasting is, if I recall correctly, actually effectively the same as a half-caster using spell point system and a standard adventuring day. Is the 4EM the points level, recovery, and spend cost that we're going with?

I'm assuming that there will be abilities than convert points into damage on a hit. How much baseline damage should a point be worth? D8 would fit with the paladin smite model. Obviously riders and benefits would change this.

Are you thinking of an actual extra attack at 5th level, or a different style of damage boost? or would that be subclass-dependent: (Circle fighter gets extra attack, swordcaster gets to add +2d8 elemental damage etc.)

The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

And the concept is exactly a combatant that uses complex mathematics and anatomical knowledge as part of its martial prowess. It’s The Magic Circle, but actually magic.

Other than the involvement of "magic" they sounds like two different archetypes.
One uses mental mathematics, sacred geometry and anatomical knowledge to move effectively, defend against attacks and deal damage. - Sounds very "internal". (Actually sounds very similar to the Monk class already.)
The other uses teleporting, shields of force and blasts fire out of their weapon to move effectively, defend against attacks, and deal damage. - Much more flashy, externally focused and elemental. (This sounds like the 4e swordmage.)
They're both cool concepts, but they sound different enough to be separate archetypes at least.

edit: in the draft of the introductory fluff I posted, I even describe a character Drawing The Circle in his mind and gaining basically a magical HUD that shows him the math of battle.

Indeed. But he is not judging the posiitiion and potential movements of the battlefield with a keen eye and acquired skill, he is casting a spell that does all that for him.
To my mind that is Arcana, not Investigation.

 

[FrogReaver]

@FrogReaver to be perfectly clear, if I didn't want your input in this thread, I'd have just ignored you the first time we butted heads ITT. I know you like the basic idea of a swordmage (name nonwithstanding), which is what makes it frustrating.

Understandable and thank you. I like the concept of a swordmage and I also like the concept of a swordsman scholar that does ritual magic - I'm just not entirely sure those concepts are the same. So I wish you would be a little more open to the possibility of names changing - but I won't argue about the names here. Maybe we can revisit that when the final product is complete.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on actual specific mechanics, like whether the Aegis should function like a fighting style or like a stance,

To me the type of Aegis should be the major feature differentiator between subclasses. To me it would function much like a Paladin's Oath in that regard. Have some Aegis type specific spells.

Maybe the Aegis variations are

Aegis of Fire
Aegis of Frost
Aegis of Assault
Aegis of Protection
Aegis of Haste

or what some good techniques would be.

I would make swordmage spells the upgraded version of booming blade and such. This allows for them to have a lot more magical power behind them than say a smite spell. Alternatively you could have them just require a bonus action when you hit and no concertation. Maybe some of both types.

Your input on skills has been noted and further discussion invited in the update to the OP.

Thanks

I just don't see the usefulness of harping on the idea that the class is OP when it isn't even 1% designed, yet.

That's fair. I will wait to judge the power level when it's closer to completion. All I've been meaning to say is let's just try to avoid having unnecessary only semi thematic power in the class for now as we have alot of abilities and features to add and anything we add at this early stage that's powerful will greatly reduce our options later.

 

[FrogReaver]

Other than the involvement of "magic" they sounds like two different archetypes.
One uses mental mathematics, sacred geometry and anatomical knowledge to move effectively, defend against attacks and deal damage. - Sounds very "internal". (Actually sounds very similar to the Monk class already.)
The other uses teleporting, shields of force and blasts fire out of their weapon to move effectively, defend against attacks, and deal damage. - Much more flashy, externally focused and elemental. (This sounds like the 4e swordmage.)
They're both cool concepts, but they sound different enough to be separate archetypes at least.

I was with that assessment at first. I think what's being pushed for is really less math and logic and more understanding of arcane magic and swordmanship to such an extent they can be seamlessly mixed together in various techniques. The real world inspiration makes sense to me, but certainly seems like it would need to be modified to be less about anatomy and math and more about the arcane.

 

[FrogReaver]

Perhaps this character is setup more like a warlock where he get's an aegis choice and a subclass choice.

 

[FrogReaver]

Aegis of Protection seems to be the most iconic swordmage style. I think we focus on that first.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The 4 Elements Monk setup of spellcasting is, if I recall correctly, actually effectively the same as a half-caster using spell point system and a standard adventuring day. Is the 4EM the points level, recovery, and spend cost that we're going with?

I'm assuming that there will be abilities than convert points into damage on a hit. How much baseline damage should a point be worth? D8 would fit with the paladin smite model. Obviously riders and benefits would change this.

Well, the cost point of element monk spells are all 1 ki too high (look at every other Spellcasting monk), but otherwise yes. As for points to damage conversion, not like divine smite. They have a small at-will damage boost instead, unless that ends up limiting technique power levels too much, in which case yeah the weapon bond will probably gain a “spend X points to add Y extra damage of the same elemental type as your elemental attunement to your next hit” or whatever.

Are you thinking of an actual extra attack at 5th level, or a different style of damage boost? or would that be subclass-dependent: (Circle fighter gets extra attack, swordcaster gets to add +2d8 elemental damage etc.)

I don’t think we need to reinvent the wheel, here. I gave the assassin a situation extra attack and a riposte because it isn’t meant to be a “fair fight” warrior class. The Swordmage is a weapon master. They might as well just scale their at will damage the same way every other warrior class does.

Other than the involvement of "magic" they sounds like two different archetypes.
One uses mental mathematics, sacred geometry and anatomical knowledge to move effectively, defend against attacks and deal damage. - Sounds very "internal". (Actually sounds very similar to the Monk class already.)
The other uses teleporting, shields of force and blasts fire out of their weapon to move effectively, defend against attacks, and deal damage. - Much more flashy, externally focused and elemental. (This sounds like the 4e swordmage.)
They're both cool concepts, but they sound different enough to be separate archetypes at least.

I very disagree. There is no reason that the “internal” thing you describe doesn’t result in visible magical effects that accompany your attacks, Defense, and movement.

Indeed. But he is not judging the posiitiion and potential movements of the battlefield with a keen eye and acquired skill, he is casting a spell that does all that for him.
To my mind that is Arcana, not Investigation.

No, he is doing it with his mind, and reinforcing and enhancing it with magic. That is precisely the concept.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I was with that assessment at first. I think what's being pushed for is really less math and logic and more understanding of arcane magic and swordmanship to such an extent they can be seamlessly mixed together in various techniques. The real world inspiration makes sense to me, but certainly seems like it would need to be modified to be less about anatomy and math and more about the arcane.

The whole point...like...the actual whoooooole point, is that the Swordmage views these all as complementary disciplines that can be synthesized into one tradition.

 

[FrogReaver]

The whole point...like...the actual whoooooole point, is that the Swordmage views these all as complementary disciplines that can be synthesized into one tradition.

If that's the case I think you may be trying to cram a little to much into the base archetpye. It reads more to me like a lot of disjointed ideas instead of something clean and clear-cut. Usually subclasses are the place to expand on the primary class idea like that.

 

[FrogReaver]

When in doubt about what we are designing I go back to the OP:

Basic mechanical goals:

*Magical abilities that add to, rather than replace, the attack action.

*New spells that combine an attack with a magical effect, or are simply a magical effect flavored as using your weapon, like throwing your sword and it slices at every creature in a 20ft sphere, or whatever.

*No reliance on armor, but still a class that has reason to consider strength. (unarmored defense, but maybe a wide weapon list and shields?)

*Intelligence secondary, about as important as Cha for Paladins.

*Room for a really nerdy subclass, and at least one that barely qualifies as a scholar.

We can design around the extra attack feature (though I'm kind of digging a half-caster class that uses a melee cantrip with features and spells that enhance that - if this thread doesn't produce something similar to that I may try)

New spells that combine an attack with a magical effect. Easy!

No reliance on armor - 13+Int defense calc solves that. Possibly add in ways to get a little more.

Intelligence secondary. Basing AC on int already solves this as well.

Room for a nerdy subclass - sounds like subclass is the place to add in scholarly stuff