Tell me why Druids are the most powerful class

[mikebr99]

A lot of posters look only on the the upside. It is the usual grass is greener effect going on here. In spades.

Forget for the moment how being an Animal Growthed Dire Bear looks in the spreadsheet. Let us consider the reverse: What happens to that Druid who does not cast Animal Growth on himself.

You are a 12th level Druid in a party of four. You wake up in the morning, prep spells, have breakfast, stretch, wildshape into a Dire Bear, and then meet a simple EL 12 as a warmup for the days adventuring. Let us keep this simple...

You meet 12 Dire Bears.

Your party wizard hangs back. Your Fighter squares off against 4. Your Animal Companion takes on 1. The fourth party member faces off against, say, 3. You, the big supertough overpowered Dire Bear Druid, take on 4.

They churn you into a fine red mist within 5.2 seconds.

Is that too powerful?

I don't care what Ridley says... you're the best cohort I've seen. Want to come work for me? I've got fudge!



Mike

 

[Mekabar]

Yesh... Do you often fight in battles that last 24 hours straight?

No, but buffing your buddies in combat will take 2 rounds in which you party Wizard can't cast. If you do it precautiously, you will spend a lot more than you actually need. Better to rely on something permanent.

 

[Pielorinho]

Forget for the moment how being an Animal Growthed Dire Bear looks in the spreadsheet. Let us consider the reverse: What happens to that Druid who does not cast Animal Growth on himself.

Well, if I were the druid in that situation, no way would I go dire bear. As a druid, here's what I'd do:
1) Wall of Thorns to separate us from all the bears, or from all but one. Wild animals are unlikely to try to crash through this wall, and it'll give us time to work.
2) If I've got animal-control spells prepared (invisibility to animals, charm person or animal, dominate animal, etc.), go ahead and use them. Normally I won't have them prepared, though, so:
2a) Control the battlefield more with Spike Growth, Spike Stones, or Transmute Rock to Mud. If I know it's going to be a fight to the death, then I put the bears in the middle of the pain; otherwise, I put the bad terrain between us and the beras.
3) Assuming a fight to the death, this is where I'd pull out a flame strike or two. I should be able to catch two bears at least in it, possibly three if they're standing real close to one another; that's potentially 36d6 points of damage I can inflict at once.
4) Continue in this vein. I'm not going dire bear against them.

I would go dire bear against another type of opponent: a spellcaster, or a weapon-using fighter. Either of these will be seriously inconvenienced by being grappled. But if I'm playing rock-paper-scissors, and my opponent has twelve rocks, I'm using paper.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

No, but buffing your buddies in combat will take 2 rounds in which you party Wizard can't cast. If you do it precautiously, you will spend a lot more than you actually need. Better to rely on something permanent.

We did it before entering the dungeon, or other dangerous situation, not after initiative had been rolled. It was actually very efficient, since we then had ~16,000 gold each to spend on other items.

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I don't care what Ridley says... you're the best cohort I've seen. Want to come work for me? I've got fudge!

I dunno.

That is how Ridley suckered me into working for him in the first place. Said he would give me fudge. With walnuts in it!

What he really meant was he knew where to steal fudge. And he wanted me to help...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I would go dire bear against another type of opponent: a spellcaster, or a weapon-using fighter. Either of these will be seriously inconvenienced by being grappled. But if I'm playing rock-paper-scissors, and my opponent has twelve rocks, I'm using paper.

But the Druid wildshaped is such a...big...rock!



The thought experiment is a simple level equivalent encounter that should carry almost no real risk and you can spank three different ways. Just pointing out that without that buffing, the Druid can easily get himself into deep trouble. Wildshaping alone still leaves the Druid light years behind a similar level Fighter.

Obviously I would try to use the right tactics for the right situation. But it is not going to work easily or without risks. An appropriate level NPC spellcaster has ways of dealing with grapple. And even run-of-the-mill NPC Fighters should be able to comfortably match up against a Dire Bear or two without trouble. If you use Improved Grab on the wrong target (he has Close Quarter Fighting) that could be 15-20 HPs you will deeply regret losing....

In conclusion, the buffing up of the wildshaped Druid is not some luxury for the powergamer. It is a necessity so the Druid can actually use wildshaping in melee.

 

[Staffan]

However, at least at lower levels SNA brings out way better things than SM. If you can get a celestial of fiendish whatever, or an elemental, with a Summon Monster N, you can get a normal whatever, or the same elemental, with Summon Nature's Ally N-1. That's pretty powerful, getting a dire badger, hippogriff, or crocodile with a 2nd level spell. I imagine that the celestial/fiendish monsters will be more worth it with the higher-level spells, when they get DR and better resistances, but personally I'd rather have a normal crocodile on my side for 4 rounds at level 4 than a celestial riding dog.

 

[DSC-EricPrice]

A particular weakness: Animal ACs suck, hard. Yep, buffing spells and magic items can help.....but meanwhile, the fighter is swinging away, the archer is in machine-gun mode, and the wizard's laying down the smack.

This has been my experience as well, both for me and my companions.

 

[Pielorinho]

Obviously I would try to use the right tactics for the right situation. But it is not going to work easily or without risks. An appropriate level NPC spellcaster has ways of dealing with grapple. And even run-of-the-mill NPC Fighters should be able to comfortably match up against a Dire Bear or two without trouble. If you use Improved Grab on the wrong target (he has Close Quarter Fighting) that could be 15-20 HPs you will deeply regret losing....

In conclusion, the buffing up of the wildshaped Druid is not some luxury for the powergamer. It is a necessity so the Druid can actually use wildshaping in melee.

Fair enough! I think my point is that without Animal Growth, the dire-bear-wildshaped druid is effective in a reasonably large number of encounters; with animal growth, there's few encounters it's not effective in.

I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I wouldn't be surprised if one animalgrowthed direbeared druid could stand up to four regular dire bears, especially if the druid's animal companion is part of the fight. Anyone want to try a mock combat?

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Fair enough! I think my point is that without Animal Growth, the dire-bear-wildshaped druid is effective in a reasonably large number of encounters; with animal growth, there's few encounters it's not effective in.

I would agree with that. Keep in mind that the Druid alone without buffing or wildshaping is one of the weaker melee core classes due to inferior armaments options. Just a smidgeon better than a Bard but far, far worse than almost any standard Cleric or Rogue build.

I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I wouldn't be surprised if one animalgrowthed direbeared druid could stand up to four regular dire bears, especially if the druid's animal companion is part of the fight. Anyone want to try a mock combat?

I think an Animal Growthed Druid plus Companion could take on 5 Dire Bears comfortably enough. They damn well better be able to! He is employing two major class abilities (wildshape, companion) and one of his higher level spell slots to get the job done.