Template/Race, adding cha to AC

[Question]

Spam some more eh?

Back on topic : Shrug, dont have anything in mind, was just thinking of how powerful the ability would be and its LA cost......hard to adjucate stuff like that.

 

[Klaus]

Take away a human's bonus deat and bonus skill points and give him Cha to AC as deflection and I'd call it balanced. It's the only thing he'd get, though. Kinda boring.

And I consider the hobgoblin LA+0.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Take away a human's bonus deat and bonus skill points and give him Cha to AC as deflection and I'd call it balanced. It's the only thing he'd get, though. Kinda boring.

And I consider the hobgoblin LA+0.

The hobgoblin is a slight problem at LA +0 and a huge misfortune at LA +1. There's is a sad lot--they need to be buffed a bunch or debuffed slightly to firmly fit in a particular slot.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Back on topic : Shrug, dont have anything in mind, was just thinking of how powerful the ability would be and its LA cost......hard to adjucate stuff like that.

It's very hard, and even more so without a full description. Like I said, +2 is a good start and others seem to concur. But, to put it into perspective, I'd say that every sorcerer, bard, and possibly paladin will have that race. The huge (free) deflection bonus to AC is just too good. A cleric wouldn't need it due to shield of faith. A monk might also take it if he uses the "unmatched AC build".

 

[Rystil Arden]

It's very hard, and even more so without a full description. Like I said, +2 is a good start and others seem to concur. But, to put it into perspective, I'd say that every sorcerer, bard, and possibly paladin will have that race. The huge (free) deflection bonus to AC is just too good. A cleric wouldn't need it due to shield of faith. A monk might also take it if he uses the "unmatched AC build".

I would think that Sorcerers and Bards would be unlikely to take it because of the hit to caster level with LA of 2. That's another reason I gave favourable stats too.

Also, it's unclear about Question's unspecified race, but at least with mine, Paladins would have to think twice because I hand out a Strength and Con penalty (though admittedly a Charisma boost). Sorcerers will have to think twice, though. They are getting some nice AC and better casting stat, but they are a full spell level behind their comrades (and Sorcerers are already half a level behind as is) plus missing out on HP for two levels plus the -2 Con penalty.

 

[Klaus]

The hobgoblin is a slight problem at LA +0 and a huge misfortune at LA +1. There's is a sad lot--they need to be buffed a bunch or debuffed slightly to firmly fit in a particular slot.

Comparing the strongest LA +0 race (dwarf, who shares a favored class with the hobs) with the hobgoblin, the hobgoblins isn't overpowered. It's main racial schtick is to have good ability scores.
+2 Dex, +2 Con, Darkvision 60' and +4 Move Silently aren't overpowered against
+2 Con, -2 Cha, Darkvision 60', bonus vs. poison and spells, stonecunning, stability, weapon familiarity with two very good weapons, bonus AC vs. giants and bonus to attack certain humanoids.

I think hobgoblins fit very well into the LA +0 range.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Comparing the strongest LA +0 race (dwarf, who shares a favored class with the hobs) with the hobgoblin, the hobgoblins isn't overpowered. It's main racial schtick is to have good ability scores.
+2 Dex, +2 Con, Darkvision 60' and +4 Move Silently aren't overpowered against
+2 Con, -2 Cha, Darkvision 60', bonus vs. poison and spells, stonecunning, stability, weapon familiarity with two very good weapons, bonus AC vs. giants and bonus to attack certain humanoids.

I think hobgoblins fit very well into the LA +0 range.

Dwarves are a whole other concern--they aren't exactly balanced themselves. However, note that all of those dwarven abilities are only situational useful. +2 Dex is always useful. Also, the dwarves have a substantial penalty in movement speed, though heavy armour makes this vanish. A better comparison is to elves. A Hobgoblin Fighter outclasses an Elven Fighter in incredible ways. +4 Con compared to the elf means many many more HP. Darkvision is more useful than Low-Light except to casters. +4 to one skill is more useful than +2 to two skills (for the same reason that Skill Focus is +3 and the twofers give +2 +2) but the elves get three skills and that secret door thing, which makes up for the gap between Dark and Low-Light. That leaves Immunity to Sleep and +2 vs Enchantments to stand against +4 Con. Not a contest.

There would be no reason to play an Elf in this case. Heck, I would make hobgoblin Wizards instead of elves if I could get them for LA +0. +4 more Con is so drastically important for a Wizard that even the elven weapon proficiencies are nothing in comparison.

 

[onyxlumadus]

If you look at the Nymph, and break down it's abilities according to Savage Species.
Unearthly beauty is worth a +2 LA, so which adds Cha to saves and as a deflection bonus to AC. Therefore, adding just your Cha as a deflection bonus to AC would be a +1 LA.

 

[Lorehead]

There would be no reason to play an Elf in this case. Heck, I would make hobgoblin Wizards instead of elves if I could get them for LA +0. +4 more Con is so drastically important for a Wizard that even the elven weapon proficiencies are nothing in comparison.

For wizards, a better comparison is the gnome. -2 Str is not a significant penalty to a wizard. Gnomes get the same Con bonus as hobgoblins, and their Small size grants an attack, AC and Hide bonus equivalent to what the hobgoblins get. Other than that, the hobgoblin gets higher base speed, darkvision, +5 bonus on grapple and a few other checks, and +1 to initiative and Dex-based checks. The gnome gets low-light vision, better illusions, a saving throw bonus against illusions, situational attack and dodge bonuses, two additional +2 skill bonuses, and weapon familiarity that a wizard won't use. I think that the gnome has the overall edge.

 

[Seeten]

Dwarves are a whole other concern--they aren't exactly balanced themselves. However, note that all of those dwarven abilities are only situational useful. +2 Dex is always useful. Also, the dwarves have a substantial penalty in movement speed, though heavy armour makes this vanish. A better comparison is to elves. A Hobgoblin Fighter outclasses an Elven Fighter in incredible ways. +4 Con compared to the elf means many many more HP. Darkvision is more useful than Low-Light except to casters. +4 to one skill is more useful than +2 to two skills (for the same reason that Skill Focus is +3 and the twofers give +2 +2) but the elves get three skills and that secret door thing, which makes up for the gap between Dark and Low-Light. That leaves Immunity to Sleep and +2 vs Enchantments to stand against +4 Con. Not a contest.

There would be no reason to play an Elf in this case. Heck, I would make hobgoblin Wizards instead of elves if I could get them for LA +0. +4 more Con is so drastically important for a Wizard that even the elven weapon proficiencies are nothing in comparison.

I believe in comparing strong LA +0 races with Hobgoblins, not terrible ones. Elves are awful, so comparing Hobgoblins to elves or half-elves, worse yet, is just...well, it doesnt show balance, thats for sure.

Hobgoblin v Dwarf is pretty even.
Hobgoblin v Human?

Bonus Feat, Bonus Skills v +2 +2, darkvision, move silently.

Wow, thats a close one. I think I'll call it even.

Hobgoblin v Deep Dwarf? Heh.

I think Hobgoblins are LA +0. I agree with Klaus.

If you want em at LA +1, you better start buffing. Giving them a charisma penalty makes sense to me, just like it does for orcs, too, so if you want to debuff em down to LA +0 even more, drop their cha.

the problem with LA +0 races is you have some that should pay you a level to play them, like Kobold, Half-Elf, and more, and others that are incredible, like Dwarves, Humans, Warforged. Many LA +1 races are outright terrible compared to dwarves, humans and warforged.