The Batman - Official 4K Trailer (2022) Robert Pattinson, Zoe Kravitz | DC FanDome 2021

[LoganRan]

"I've been trying to reach you...

... about your car's extended warranty."

I can't even begin to count how many times I have gotten "this is your final courtesy call before we close out your account..." calls re: my extended warranty.

Are they unfamiliar with the concept of "final"?

 

[Urriak Uruk]

batman lore question. will the riddler have followers?

If you mean henchmen, I'd say for this film he probably doesn't. It looks like he's more of a serial killer here, who is manipulating folks into his plans. Batman seems to be fighting Penguin henchmen and clown gang members in the trailer.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Oh he does in most versions; I should have communicated that in a more straight forward manner then necessarily. But it does appear the funding part (and in some versions, the political aspect) came later on.

I'm not saying it's not fun to watch (and I'm going to leave the thread as I don't want to appear to be spoiling people's funds). I'm saying there are potentially distasteful aspects to the character, as there is to be any very long running comic book character.

For sure. I really wish they’d start showing Batman as more pragmatic in his crusade, taking down the most predatory criminals that make it harder to lift communities up, and then doing the work as Bruce to lift those communities up.

I love Batman, but part of the reason I love him is that he's a really tragic figure.... no one should want to be Batman. He's the man who has everything (literally a billionaire) and is (mostly) unhappy. He's the little kid who's parents were murdered, and he just can't get over it.

Anyone thinking rationally should know that going at at night and beating up criminals isn't going to stop crime (and in many Batman stories, it just invites more challenge). But Batman isn't really thinking rationally; the man needs therapy.

But I still like him. I feel bad for him, I want him to succeed. But I also know that in the long-term, this Batman-fighting-crime-by-night is never going to work.

I'm not really commenting on Snyder batman (because that guy's a straight-up murderer), mostly Batman as shown in comics like Year One, the Long Halloween, Nolan films, etc.

This always bugged me, because it wouldn’t be hard to make Batman’s crusade not be doomed to failure. Nolan Batman gets part of it right by taking down the organized crime families and rooting out the especially crooked cops rather than patrolling every night to beat up individual muggers, but IIRC it never shows Bruce using the changing leadership and his vast wealth to help the marginalized have actual opportunities.

Most Batman stories don’t even get that much of it right.

Not to the mention the absurdity of the whole “superheroes leads to supervillains” thing.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

This always bugged me, because it wouldn’t be hard to make Batman’s crusade not be doomed to failure. Nolan Batman gets part of it right by taking down the organized crime families and rooting out the especially crooked cops rather than patrolling every night to beat up individual muggers, but IIRC it never shows Bruce using the changing leadership and his vast wealth to help the marginalized have actual opportunities.

Most Batman stories don’t even get that much of it right.

Not to the mention the absurdity of the whole “superheroes leads to supervillains” thing.

Well to be fair, if Batman actually had a strong plan to end crime in Gotham, there wouldn't be much room for sequels or to keep making comics right? The publisher/studio can't actually let him win permanently!

This kind of bothers me for heroes like Flash/Superman (who are more optimistic characters), but for Batman it always made sense to me that he can't win. Even if he did take down the crime families and crack down on corruption, no one nowhere can stop all crime from happening. And the sad thing about Bruce Wayne is his parents were killed in a random mugging gone wrong (most depictions show the mugger got skittish and did not initially intend to kill). Batman can't actually stop that type of violence from happening forever.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well to be fair, if Batman actually had a strong plan to end crime in Gotham, there wouldn't be much room for sequels or to keep making comics right? The publisher/studio can't actually let him win permanently!

I mean, that is a pretty big problem with big 2 comics, they have to keep going, no one retires permanently, etc.

Which is why I stopped reading anything but limited runs and what ifs. They're the only stories where anything matters or has real stakes.

This kind of bothers me for heroes like Flash/Superman (who are more optimistic characters), but for Batman it always made sense to me that he can't win. Even if he did take down the crime families and crack down on corruption, no one nowhere can stop all crime from happening. And the sad thing about Bruce Wayne is his parents were killed in a random mugging gone wrong (most depictions show the mugger got skittish and did not initially intend to kill). Batman can't actually stop that type of violence from happening forever.

I mean, he could make it as rare as it is in the safest places in the world, which is close enough.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

I mean, he could make it as rare as it is in the safest places in the world, which is close enough.

Could he though? Crime is one of those perpetual problems that doesn't really go away, ever. Like, if Gotham is NYC in the "dark days," then the goal would be... NYC today? Like, out of the biggest 100 cities in the US, NYC is 80th in murder rater, which is pretty good. But is NYC "universally safe" at night? Obviously not.

And we shouldn't be comparing US cities to like Helsinki, because that's going to be WAY too much politics for this forum. I'll just say, to get to something like that is going to require a lot of federal changes that I don't think even Batman could overcome!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Could he though? Crime is one of those perpetual problems that doesn't really go away, ever. Like, if Gotham is NYC in the "dark days," then the goal would be... NYC today? Like, out of the biggest 100 cities in the US, NYC is 80th in murder rater, which is pretty good. But is NYC "universally safe" at night? Obviously not.

And we shouldn't be comparing US cities to like Helsinki, because that's going to be WAY too much politics for this forum. I'll just say, to get to something like that is going to require a lot of federal changes that I don't think even Batman could overcome!

Bruce Wayne has Bezos level money. More, actually, IIRC. He literally could just end homelessness in Gotham. Permanently. And still be one of the wealthiest people in the world.

Crime, especially violent crime like muggings, is directly and inescapably related to poverty, marginalization, and lack of opportunities.

And again, it isn't about crime "going away", it's about reducing crime to the point where all that remains is extremely rare street crime, and white collar crime. I don't have the research in front of me, but IIRC basically 0% of muggings and similar crimes (armed robbery of a store, car jacking, etc) are committed to people who aren't living in poverty.

Batman isn't the punisher, even when he does kill people. His goal is to end the state of people not being safe in Gotham, to end violent street crime and other rampant forms of victimization. Targeted action against organized crime combined with economic justice action as Bruce, a guy who could purchase half of Gotham and still be a in the top 100 wealthiest individuals in the world, could accomplish that.

It would take years, perhaps even decades if enough powerful people are opposing him, but hey, that's good for a comic, right? Plenty of time for him to train up a whole Bat family, set them up to be independently wealthy so they can spread out eventually and do the same elsewhere while also using their wealth to gain political influence in the nation's greatest cities, and use that influence to make the change they are spearheading more sustainable with local, state, and eventually federal, changes.

Hell, fact is, at some point, Bruce has an obligation to get into politics, even if just indirectly. Social and economic action has limits (though far fewer for someone like him than for nearly anyone else), and are more effective when combined with political action.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Bruce Wayne has Bezos level money. More, actually, IIRC. He literally could just end homelessness in Gotham. Permanently. And still be one of the wealthiest people in the world.

Crime, especially violent crime like muggings, is directly and inescapably related to poverty, marginalization, and lack of opportunities.

And again, it isn't about crime "going away", it's about reducing crime to the point where all that remains is extremely rare street crime, and white collar crime. I don't have the research in front of me, but IIRC basically 0% of muggings and similar crimes (armed robbery of a store, car jacking, etc) are committed to people who aren't living in poverty.

Batman isn't the punisher, even when he does kill people. His goal is to end the state of people not being safe in Gotham, to end violent street crime and other rampant forms of victimization. Targeted action against organized crime combined with economic justice action as Bruce, a guy who could purchase half of Gotham and still be a in the top 100 wealthiest individuals in the world, could accomplish that.

It would take years, perhaps even decades if enough powerful people are opposing him, but hey, that's good for a comic, right? Plenty of time for him to train up a whole Bat family, set them up to be independently wealthy so they can spread out eventually and do the same elsewhere while also using their wealth to gain political influence in the nation's greatest cities, and use that influence to make the change they are spearheading more sustainable with local, state, and eventually federal, changes.

Hell, fact is, at some point, Bruce has an obligation to get into politics, even if just indirectly. Social and economic action has limits (though far fewer for someone like him than for nearly anyone else), and are more effective when combined with political action.

As interesting a talk as this is, this is too much politics for me to want to talk about here. I do largely agree with your points here, but I'd add that the whole "going out and beating criminals up at night" would probably be counter-productive with everything else.

One of the best depictions of Batman I've seen recently is in White Knight, which I won't spoil. But let's say that it shows a Batman who is becoming more and more pessimistic about his hopes to change Gotham, and is behaving more irrationally as his frustration grows. A very human reaction, and one that would hamper any long-term plan to fight crime, as the positive results would take a long time to ripen.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

As interesting a talk as this is, this is too much politics for me to want to talk about here. I do largely agree with your points here, but I'd add that the whole "going out and beating criminals up at night" would probably be counter-productive with everything else.

I disagree. He would just need to target his action as Batman. Beating up Marcone and his lieutenants and disrupting their negotiations with and international drug cartel would be useful. Taking out a warehouse full of goons who are trying to bring drugs into the city, and disposing of the drugs, would be useful. There's a lot of punching he could be doing that is useful.

I'm personally fine with the fact that comics ignore concussive brain damage and the fact you can absolutely accidentally kill someone with a blow to the head, it's basically fantasy. Believability in human behavior is vastly more important than physical realism.

One of the best depictions of Batman I've seen recently is in White Knight, which I won't spoil. But let's say that it shows a Batman who is becoming more and more pessimistic about his hopes to change Gotham, and is behaving more irrationally as his frustration grows. A very human reaction, and one that would hamper any long-term plan to fight crime, as the positive results would take a long time to ripen.

That sounds pretty grim. Probably not what I want from a story about a hero. IMO the best Batman avoids that sort of pessimism. YMMV of course, based on what you like in a story.

 

[wicked cool]

the joker has a lot of good graphic novels such as killing joke etc. Does the riddler have 1?