D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

Mearls here says something like "It turns out needing two islands to cast a counterspell is a part of why it works," so, yeah, he definitely has learned that the preparation cost matters.

Having 2 U to cast it meant you had to really dedicate to blue to do it early.


While it's a different vibe in D&D than it is in M:TG, I think "stop having fun" effects are ultimately kind of toxic in play because of how they really mess with the joy of your fellow players. Less toxic maybe in D&D where the PCs win most of the time anyway and you're really just figuring out how they get to that victory. But still, clearly...impactful...
I still think D&D could benefit from having lower cost counter spells that only work in specific situations like versus certain schools of magic or versus certain monster types.

Countering conjuration spells or fire spells might just impactful enough to mater but not universal enough to annoy.

The death of Counterspell in MtG is a myth.

Blue based Control/Counter magic is a part of nearly every format, and certainly every good and healthy meta.
Control never left when I still played.

But Draw Go MUC took a hit in the less older formats back when I still played.
 

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Interestingly, I think this might explain what happened with Conjure Elementals, or whichever one it was that everyone was freaking out about in 2024 that scaled double before getting errata’d. It was, in essence, a new damage spell built from the ground up with modern understanding of the system’s math, and it really scales like such spells should scale. But, since they didn’t update all the other damage spells, it ended up being overpowered, in the sense that if you aren’t taking it, you’re hamstringing yourself. So, it needed the errata. Or else every other damage spell did, and at that point backwards compatibility is out the window.

That's my theory as well. Its really only broken on impractical bard builds.
 

Broader. Talking about modularity, and how that lets 3PPs get away with 5e-compatible design that is quite different from 5e and uses some different assumptions. Subclasses were mentioned as one of those spaces where that's not really true: subclasses kind of assume that an underlying class is going to work a particular way, so, like, if you change how a class works, you can't use the subclass with it anymore. Change how sneak attack works or how spell slots work or how Action Surge works and it has bang-on effects on subclass design
I think he was more saying how some classes assumed a offense or defense or utility buff at certain levels so when you were designing a subclass for those classes you had to create a subclass feature which matched that or it would stray to powerful or to weak in one of the elements in the game's assumption.

This is like one of the UA Ranger subclasses that got a defense bonus instead of a office bonus at level 3 and the entire internet went on a uproar about how the ranger could have the most strong defense of all Marshalls in the game because instead of getting it offense bonus, it got another defense bonus. Therefore 3PP designers would have to be very careful about what they allow because if the group did not know a subclass is using a different methodology they could be surprised and if they did, it would play extremely different.
 

Unfortunately they will be tinker gnomes from Krynn. Each book will be over 800 pages long and even after reading them, no one will know how the game works.
So, going back to 1e?
Ok, so I got to that part of the podcast, and… this isn’t what he said. He just said “we made a mistake.” Which, like… sure, I get that, but I’m still left wondering why, at the time, he said it was intentionally above the curve.
It was intentionally above the curve. But the curve was in the wrong place, leading to fireball being fine-ish anyway.
It hurts more vs PCs than NPCs.

PC hp are very similar to 3E.
PCs have similar hp, yes – slightly more because the floor is higher (rogues and bards have d8s, and sorcerers and wizards d6s, but that's a marginal change). But monsters have WAY more hp. A CR 3 monster typically has between 50 and 90 hp (interestingly enough, most seem to either be in the 50s or 80s, with few in the 60s and 70s), with occasional outliers lower than that. At CR 5, it's more like 80-120 (using 5.0 numbers). In the face of hp totals like that, the 25-30 of an unsaved fireball is just going to tickle.
 

The death of Counterspell in MtG is a myth.

Blue based Control/Counter magic is a part of nearly every format, and certainly every good and healthy meta.
I think you generally see less countermagic in Magic these days because of the pre-eminence of Commander as a format. Counterspells show up less there because one-for-ones are inherently less useful in a multiplayer format. You still see some of them played, but more as emergency buttons ("No, I'm not going to let you reanimate your whole graveyard.") than as a primary strategy.
 

So, going back to 1e?

It was intentionally above the curve. But the curve was in the wrong place, leading to fireball being fine-ish anyway.

PCs have similar hp, yes – slightly more because the floor is higher (rogues and bards have d8s, and sorcerers and wizards d6s, but that's a marginal change). But monsters have WAY more hp. A CR 3 monster typically has between 50 and 90 hp (interestingly enough, most seem to either be in the 50s or 80s, with few in the 60s and 70s), with occasional outliers lower than that. At CR 5, it's more like 80-120 (using 5.0 numbers). In the face of hp totals like that, the 25-30 of an unsaved fireball is just going to tickle.

Yup I gad a recent situation 2 sessions ago. Upcast 4th or 5th level fireball+ synaptic static. Double tap lvl 11.

CR 2s and 3s sine walked away from it. They were hurt badly but still.
 

It is kind of funny that the exact same lesson was learned during 3.5. And 4e. And now again with 5e.
Yeah. It’s wild. I know they play the games they’re designing, but it almost seems like they’re in their own bubble with no contact from the wider community at all. One optimizer or power gamer on the design team could have pointed all this out. Same with the boss monster math / resting nova thread. Or even listening to the power gamers and optimizers during the playtest would have caught so many of these things.
 

I think you generally see less countermagic in Magic these days because of the pre-eminence of Commander as a format. Counterspells show up less there because one-for-ones are inherently less useful in a multiplayer format. You still see some of them played, but more as emergency buttons ("No, I'm not going to let you reanimate your whole graveyard.") than as a primary strategy.
It’s not just Commander. Designs have been pushing individual cards doing more and more things - enter triggers, cast triggers, attack triggers, generating various artifact tokens that can be sacrificed for additional benefits, not to mention bonkers stuff like Nadu and Vivi. Even in 1v1 magic, one-for-one exchanges just mostly aren’t worth it, except to answer a threat that will kill you if it isn’t answered immediately.
 

Yeah. It’s wild. I know they play the games they’re designing, but it almost seems like they’re in their own bubble with no contact from the wider community at all. One optimizer or power gamer on the design team could have pointed all this out. Same with the boss monster math / resting nova thread. Or even listening to the power gamers and optimizers during the playtest would have caught so many of these things.
But you don't base the game mechanics around the one power gamer. Most people are not min-maxers, just like most video game players are not speed runners. You base it around the fun a group of people have. You base it around the feeling of being fair and levelled. Not the lone guy at the game store that wants to only play a character that will always do max damage. (PS - A few monsters with resistance to their gimmick instantly equalizes things for some encounters. The others, let them do their thing.)
 

But you don't base the game mechanics around the one power gamer. Most people are not min-maxers, just like most video game players are not speed runners. You base it around the fun a group of people have. You base it around the feeling of being fair and levelled. Not the lone guy at the game store that wants to only play a character that will always do max damage. (PS - A few monsters with resistance to their gimmick instantly equalizes things for some encounters. The others, let them do their thing.)

I wouldn't build a game for the powergamer.

A good powergamer could rapidly point out captain obvious levels of issues very quickly.
 

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