D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[Zardnaar]

So maybe we should just use 2xdice when we upscale instant damage spells.

Seems reasonable. They are probably still not great. But more usable.

That would make burning hands 7d6 at level 5. Still worse than fireball.
I´d still rule +1die extra on class level 5 (level 1 and 2 spells), 11 (level 1 to 5 spells) and 17 (level 1 to 8 spells) for free.

I find 5E damage spells kinda bored in a way. At least vs PCs.

Level 1 soelks are tuned high. Chromatic Orb, Guiding bolt etc. They dont scale well and theyre not that good vs monsters.

Use them on PCs espicially at low levels and you get a crit fir 8d6 or 10d6.

Closest ive seen that is a PC upcast guiding bolt to lvl 3, crit and vulnerability to radient.

Spirit guardians great PC spell. Not so much for DM.

Even if you reduce PC to 0 mostly doesn't matter due to healing word

 

[AnotherGuy]

Upscaling the damage does three things:

• makes the spells more useful
• makes the fights more deadly (counters the hit point bloat)
• shortens combat

I would also increase the damage done by natural attacks done by larger monsters (bite, claw, weapon).
The conditions of push or prone being inflicted on PCs are nice but are easily overcome, so an extra damage die or two would do the trick to make them more meaningful.

My table is 16th level so this is what I am noticing.

 

[Horwath]

I find 5E damage spells kinda bored in a way. At least vs PCs.

Level 1 soelks are tuned high. Chromatic Orb, Guiding bolt etc. They dont scale well and theyre not that good vs monsters.

Use them on PCs espicially at low levels and you get a crit fir 8d6 or 10d6.

Closest ive seen that is a PC upcast guiding bolt to lvl 3, crit and vulnerability to radient.

Spirit guardians great PC spell. Not so much for DM.

Chromatic orb is higher dice (d8) and has secondary effect so it would need +2D per upcast.
In general, AoE should be 2 dice per spell level and single target 3 dice per spell level. OFC that can depend on the rider.
magic missile has good rider(auto hit) so +2d4+2 per spell level would be enough. +1d+1 is simply too low to use 2nd level spell slot. +3d4+3 might be too high for auto hit spell.

also 3rd, 6th and 9th level spell slots should bet extra boost in upscaling. double what other spell levels give. At least for damage.
IE: magic missile
1st level: default 3 missilies
2nd level: 5 missilies
3rd level: 9 missiles
4th level: 11 missiles
5th level: 13 missiles
6th level: 17 missiles
7th level: 19 missiles
8th level: 21 missiles
9th level: 25 missiles

 

[Horwath]

Upscaling the damage does three things:

• makes the spells more useful
• makes the fights more deadly (counters the hit point bloat)
• shortens combat

4th and most important thing:
makes mages use spell slots on damage spells instead of CC spells.

 

[Zardnaar]

Chromatic orb is higher dice (d8) and has secondary effect so it would need +2D per upcast.
In general, AoE should be 2 dice per spell level and single target 3 dice per spell level. OFC that can depend on the rider.
magic missile has good rider(auto hit) so +2d4+2 per spell level would be enough. +1d+1 is simply too low to use 2nd level spell slot. +3d4+3 might be too high for auto hit spell.

also 3rd, 6th and 9th level spell slots should bet extra boost in upscaling. double what other spell levels give. At least for damage.
IE: magic missile
1st level: default 3 missilies
2nd level: 5 missilies
3rd level: 9 missiles
4th level: 11 missiles
5th level: 13 missiles
6th level: 17 missiles
7th level: 19 missiles
8th level: 21 missiles
9th level: 25 missiles

I think its
Single target+3 dice upcast
AoE +2 dice
Sustained (spirit guardians)+1 dice

As someone said earlier I think CME was the new fix but theory crafters "broke" it. Very narrow ways to abuse it.

 

[Horwath]

+2 missiles per additional spell level would put magic missile in the right spot, right now I don't think I really cast it at a higher level because 1 additional missile won't really make much difference. I still like the spell though, can be handy when you know the enemy is close to dead and you just need to get some damage in. Better when playing at low character levels when hit points haven't completely blown out of proportion.

higher missile count would be great to break concentration, as every missile is different instance of damage so if 2nd level magic missile is 5 damage sources, even if DC is only 10, that is a good chance that one will be a failure.
Still can be blocked with 1st level Shield spell... but not all casters have Shield or maybe Reaction has been spent on something else(Counterspell, Absorb elements, Silvery barbs...).

 

[SlyFlourish]

It's funny. I had a twilight cleric in my campaign. Now, the campaign only went to 8th level, so, maybe the problems occur later, but, I never saw the issue. Sure, tons of healing. Who cares? It's not like that was a big deal anyway. I had zero problems with the Twilight cleric. Now, the artificer/abjurer who broke the game with a ridiculous AC was a far larger issue AFAIC. Or the Order of Scribes wizard who lied to me about how his spells worked and allowed him to cast every spell as force damage was a much larger issue.

I've never understood why Twilight Clerics get so much bad press. There are so many other ways to break the game and make it very unfun. Giving more HP to the party? Fantastic, I can pile on bigger baddies and not have to worry about it. Great!

Each of us get to decide if something's not working for us.

For me, the Twilight Cleric had way too much damage mitigation going on. It wasn't just healing, it was essentially giving every character a round-resetting damage threshold of 1d6 + cleric level. It also took a lot of time at the table because the cleric player had to remind each other player to roll for their temps at the beginning of their turn, effectively adding a new action on top of the already bloated number of actions a character gets in 5e (which also now got worse with all the non-action actions in D&D 2024). It also uses channel divinity which means clerics get two uses of it per short rest.

It was so borked in the game I ran that the player who had it was very open to work with me to nerf it into a single blast of temporary hit points when cast. Everyone at our table knew it was a problem.

I hadn't ever used the Peace cleric but heard enough complaints to also ban that one at my table whenever we allowed other Tasha's stuff. But I saw it at a convention where it totally broke an encounter that was meant as a PVP contest in which the winners got free tickets to the next convention. That was awful. You wouldn't think an extra d4 would matter but when you stack it with everything else, they were hitting 28s and 30s on their ability checks while everyone else was doing like 14.

 

[SlyFlourish]

This is the issue with D&D, and likely any game that strives to be the 'kleenex' of RPGs.

There is no possible way to 'balance' the game around

1. True Casuals.
2. Total RPG Theatre Kids who dont care at all about being effective.
3. Min-Max, Multiclass Dipping, Rules Lawyer Power Gamers.

Now, those may not all be at the same table, but if the game allows for all 3 to exist, and more besides, no way can it possibly be 'balanced' for all 3.

Instead, it all falls on the DM to balance the table, and encounters, but then Wizards doesnt even give you the rules for monster creation...oops.

I think it has always fallen to the GM to adjudicate these sorts of things and that should be built into the games we run. I now have a disclaimer at the beginning of my campaigns (which I talk about in this panel) that I tell players "hey, if something's not working out, I expect we can have a conversation about it and get it on track".

I've had to do this multiple times in multiple 5e games. Most recently with the D&D 2024 rogue thief who's "use the Magic Action as a bonus action" has really changed the entire campaign. Every magic item I give out with any sort of spell-like effect has to be balanced with the idea that she can do it as a bonus action. It also means all the players default to her to give out these items that I'd rather see other characters use. That seems like a small ability but it totally changed my whole campaign – the monsters they face and the rewards they receive.

 

[SlyFlourish]

...
One messy subclass... Years ago. If that is all you have, the system' design is not that bad.

The issue with Twilight Clerics and other WOTC-published broken stuff (Silvery Barbs) is that they're all considered default in D&D Beyond. If it weren't for D&D Beyond, it wouldn't be a problem. But players expect that if its in D&D Beyond, they can use it, and that ends up a big mess.

DDB not having any sort of way for the GM to limit source material for a campaign so players can't select anything outside of the GM's selected source material is a problem (yes, I know it looks like it has a setting for this but that setting doesn't work – if a player owns a source, they can access that material in the character builder rergardless of what the DM sets for campaign sources).

 

[SlyFlourish]

higher missile count would be great to break concentration, as every missile is different instance of damage so if 2nd level magic missile is 5 damage sources, even if DC is only 10, that is a good chance that one will be a failure.
Still can be blocked with 1st level Shield spell... but not all casters have Shield or maybe Reaction has been spent on something else(Counterspell, Absorb elements, Silvery barbs...).

This is one of those "I wonder how players would feel about it if I did it to them" sort of spells. I've always adjudicated that a pile of magic missiles only forces one concentration check because otherwise enemy spellcasters would pepper the hell out of the characters with magic missiles and players would hate you. This is a sort of "submarine spell" situation. Everyone loves it when they're on the giving end but hate it on the receiving end. Blue-deck MTG sort of stuff.